Warped brake rotors with aftermarket rims installed

[wycolo]

Compare aftermarket lug nuts with Tesla's and you will see only ~1/2 of the contact area. So you don't want to torque these to the 130 pound spec or you might crack the rims. Since TM specifies 130 lb torque for any number of different reasons, the conclusion would be not to use such rims on such a vehicle. Asking a Service Manager to release an MS with only ___ pounds of torque on the wheel studs is asking too much, as is asking him to over torque brand xx rims to Tesla spec 130 lb.

Endlessly speculating on whether or not this particular rotor is warped is silly. For starters just remove the rim and spin it to look for wobble. Better, put it on a lathe or a wheel balancer and measure any runout.

You can easily clean crud off a rotor using an 80 grit disc held @ ~60 degree angle. If you don't remove the crud the disc will wear unevenly and have to be tossed or turned on a lathe.
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[JonathanD]

If it was solely a matter of torque from the motor then only the rears would be impacted. If all 4 wheels are having the problem then we can scratch torque off the list. My money is still on the hub centric rings.

 

[Fxyz]

If it was solely a matter of torque from the motor then only the rears would be impacted. If all 4 wheels are having the problem then we can scratch torque off the list. My money is still on the hub centric rings.

Like I said before

hub centering ring was sized and installed.

TM tech and I both agreed that warped disk(s) is most likely the issue which will be confirmed in couple of weeks. I did not say all 4 rotors are warped. I said up to 4 rotors.

Repair coverage under warranty is the question. TM voids warranty automatically when after market wheels are installed.

 

[JonathanD]

Just because the rings were sized and installed doesn't necessarily mean it was done right.

Tesla needs to demonstrate the aftermarket wheels caused the problem, otherwise by law they can not refuse to honor the warranty.

 

[Fxyz]

Just because the rings were sized and installed doesn't necessarily mean it was done right.

Tesla needs to demonstrate the aftermarket wheels caused the problem, otherwise by law they can not refuse to honor the warranty.

There is always a chance for anything to go wrong but installing a centering ring is pretty simple.

I suspected warped (some would say cracked) rotor and TM tech said the same thing. We both could be wrong but not very likely.

 

[Zapped]

So, I'm a bit confused by this thread. I thought that the torque specifications were 129 foot pounds, regardless of the wheel. My OEMs 19 inch wheels are 129 foot pounds now, but so were my 19 inch Rial Luganos. Is there a different specification for the Luganos? The range of numbers people are stating here seems different to me when compared to what people mentioned in the past for any wheel put on the MS.

Did you get your RiAL's from Tire Rack ? Their site says to torque to mfg specs. The lug nuts are much smaller and smaller taper surface but since Tire Rack lists the RiAL Luganos for the Model S, I would think they have to be engineered correctly for all Model S version ( performance and standard ).

 

[JonathanD]

@Fxyz I hear you, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just using suggesting the simplest explanation is often the correct one. You have a car with aftermarket rims that need hub centric rings to fit properly and are experiencing vibration. Obviously this could be any number of things (balance, poor fitment, etc). However I think it's a sort of ridiculous thing to say to someone "you may have up to 4 warped rotors." Doesn't make sense given the info you've shared.

 

[Fxyz]

@Fxyz I hear you, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just using suggesting the simplest explanation is often the correct one. You have a car with aftermarket rims that need hub centric rings to fit properly and are experiencing vibration. Obviously this could be any number of things (balance, poor fitment, etc). However I think it's a sort of ridiculous thing to say to someone "you may have up to 4 warped rotors." Doesn't make sense given the info you've shared.

Let's just say I know what warped rotor feels like since I had the same issue before with different car.

You do have a good point about hub centering rings. In this case even without them it would have not make much of difference because I only needed a 1mm ring. Also hub centering ring helps you position the wheel on the hub. Once you tighten the bolts/nuts, bolts/nuts will center the wheel.

Problem with wheels happens right away and you will experience the vibration all the time; not after 6k miles and only when you apply the brakes.

We do not know which rotor(s) is/are warped for sure. Most likely the front ones are warped, but all four rotors will be removed and checked. That is why I said up to 4 rotors. Rotors are usually replaced in pairs but in this case if only a single rotor is warped we may be able to just replace one since all 4 rotors are almost brand new.

If I thought the wheel was the problem, I would not be posting here about manufacture brake warranty. I will be talking to the wheel manufacture/installer.

 

[rogerkang]

Let's just say I know what warped rotor feels like since I had the same issue before with different car.

You do have a good point about hub centering rings. In this case even without them it would have not make much of difference because I only needed a 1mm ring. Also hub centering ring helps you position the wheel on the hub. Once you tighten the bolts/nuts, bolts/nuts will center the wheel.

Problem with wheels happens right away and you will experience the vibration all the time; not after 6k miles and only when you apply the brakes.

We do not know which rotor(s) is/are warped for sure. Most likely the front ones are warped, but all four rotors will be removed and checked. That is why I said up to 4 rotors. Rotors are usually replaced in pairs but in this case if only a single rotor is warped we may be able to just replace one since all 4 rotors are almost brand new.

If I thought the wheel was the problem, I would not be posting here about manufacture brake warranty. I will be talking to the wheel manufacture/installer.

It seems like the rotors could be warped due to the wheel not having the cutout for the T45 head in the rotor--did you see this thread?
Vibration while breaking with iforged 21 wheels

 

[Fxyz]

It seems like the rotors could be warped due to the wheel not having the cutout for the T45 head in the rotor--did you see this thread?
Vibration while breaking with iforged 21 wheels

Already had that discussion with TM Costa Mesa service manager. My wheels have cut outs.

I was aware of the rotor retaining screw (some car use clips). Screw can be removed/changed to install wheel if it does not have the cut out. Wheel installer should know that because the wheel would not sit flush against the rotor. Also driver would have noticed the vibration all the time right after the wheel installation. My car was perfect for 6k miles.

 

[Fxyz]

Car is being serviced. All 4 rotors are warped bad. TM will NOT replace them under warranty.

TM SC is sending the rotors to engineering team to troubleshoot. I was told my after-market wheels caused it and it is the first time TM encountered this problem. I volunteered to leave my wheels for inspection if TM can provide a loaner set but TM said no.

So...

I called my wheel/tire installer and he told me he had another customer Model S with after market wheel that had warped rotors. They checked the wheels and tires and found nothing wrong. He also said he does not believe my wheels caused the warped rotor and he has been in wheel/tire business long time.

I also call my very experienced mechanic about the problem and he said unless the wheels are much heavier and are over-torqued, he can not see how the my wheels caused the rotor to warp.

Anyway I am going to keep the same wheels+tires and let's see if the problem re-surface again after 5-6k miles. Based on TM logic, problem should re-surface again...stay tuned

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Just got a call from TM.

TM tech said my rotors warped because wheels were torqued to 95 ft lb instead of 130. TM need to put that in writing.

 

[yobigd20]

Just got a call from TM.

TM tech said my rotors warped because wheels were torqued to 95 ft lb instead of 130. TM need to put that in writing.

It's already in writing. It's right in the manual. says 129 lb ft torque spec.

 

[Fxyz]

Thanks

I mean my wheels at 95 caused the rotors to warp.

First I was told maybe it was caused by backpad not being even, or the bolt hole not centered -- not true -- so finally torque number was used to void the warranty (I very much doubt it too).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Anyway I am going to keep the same wheels+tires and let's see if the problem re-surface again after 5-6k miles. Based on TM logic, problem should re-surface again...stay tuned

Are you planning to torque the same wheels/tires to the same 95 ft lbs and risk the rotors warping again (doesn't seem like a good idea)?

Or are you going to torque to the spec recommended in vehicle manual (in which case it shouldn't warp again if under-torquing was the real cause)? Did you get confirmation that if the new rotors warp again even with the right wheel torque specs that they would be covered under warranty? That would be my main question if I were in your shoes.

For the record, like others have mentioned, Tire Rack recommends torquing to the vehicle specifications (if the wheels/lugs can't handle the vehicle torque specifications then apparently it's not right for the car) and to re-torque after 50-100 miles after breaking in the new wheels.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=39

 

[Fxyz]

Since the wheel/tire installed set the torque I guess I can go back and ask them to pay for the repair but they will probably laugh at me.

Anyway, knowing at much as I know about wheels, my problem is that I cannot seriously say to the installer that torque was the cause because even I do not believe it. It maybe just an excuse, I don't know. I could probably have told TM that it was torqued at 129 and TM would probably say the wheel width caused the problem (my is 10 inch wide).

I think I know why the rotor warped but I am not going to say it here.

Stopcrazypp: Right now wheels are torqued at 129 per TM service center.

 

[ckessel]

Since the wheel/tire installed set the torque I guess I can go back and ask them to pay for the repair but they will probably laugh at me.

Is there a way to get a printout with the torque readings and signed next time?

If the installer didn't honor the manufacturer's settings and the manufacturer says it's the undertorque that's the problem, then I think you have a very valid claim against the installer. It's enough money to perhaps be worth small claims court if the installer balks. If you can get Tesla to send you something official about the undertorque they found, that might be sufficient documentation.

Not that I'm advocating running off to court, but it'll be a bit of incentive to the installer if you can show you have enough of your ducks in a row to file a claim if it came to that.

 

[Fxyz]

Is there a way to get a printout with the torque readings and signed next time?

If the installer didn't honor the manufacturer's settings and the manufacturer says it's the undertorque that's the problem, then I think you have a very valid claim against the installer. It's enough money to perhaps be worth small claims court if the installer balks. If you can get Tesla to send you something official about the undertorque they found, that might be sufficient documentation.

Not that I'm advocating running off to court, but it'll be a bit of incentive to the installer if you can show you have enough of your ducks in a row to file a claim if it came to that.

I need to get TM to commit a letter which I do not know if TM will but I will be sending an email to M. Brooks (Service Manager at Costa Mesa SC) for the letter.

Being an old engineer with wheel experience who used to worked on his own car including replacing brake parts, I seriously can not tell the installer he screwed up because I can not even convince myself that bolt torque at 95 caused the substantial rotor warping (one rotor was off by 9mm from center).

Anyway, after TM is done with the old warped rotors I want them back (they are mine since I paid for them), and would like to get some test on them.

Small claim is very easy to file but I would have hard time telling a judge something I do not even believe myself (I don't want to come across like I am lying).

 

[Dave EV]

Being an old engineer with wheel experience who used to worked on his own car including replacing brake parts, I seriously can not tell the installer he screwed up because I can not even convince myself that bolt torque at 95 caused the substantial rotor warping (one rotor was off by 9mm from center).

9mm is some SERIOUS rotor warping. I mean, I fail to see how that could happen at all unless the rotor completely failed!

That much warping would have caused some serious brake pad knock back - are you sure that's not a type-o? I mean that's almost 1 cm and about 1/3rd of an inch!

 

[Fxyz]

9mm is some SERIOUS rotor warping. I mean, I fail to see how that could happen at all unless the rotor completely failed!

That much warping would have caused some serious brake pad knock back - are you sure that's not a type-o? I mean that's almost 1 cm and about 1/3rd of an inch!

I was shocked too so I made Liza, TM Costa Mesa Rep, said it twice on the phone. Brake pads had to be replaced too. I just can not image 95 compared to 129 ft lb torque caused that much rotor warpage.

Warped rotors are being send to Fremont for analysis. I have asked in my email to M. Brooks for TM to return my rotors after analysis since they are mine.

 

[Shumdit]

I was shocked too so I made Liza, TM Costa Mesa Rep, said it twice. Brake pads had to be replaced too. I just can not image 95 compared to 129 ft lb torque caused that much rotor warpage.

It certainly could if some of the lugs were at 95 and others were at 130 though. Most installers these days use torque sticks which are extension/socket combos that supposedly automatically set the torque. They are not very reliable and nothing like the factory uses for automatic torquing of hardware