Website/Design Studio Update - Twin Chargers no longer available from factory

[smac]

Wasn't it rumored that there was some kind of glitch with single-charger cars in the UK and the quick fix was install the dual chargers (and partially disable the functionality of the 2nd charger) ?

It's not just a rumour, they were definitely shipped like that from the factory. (I have a warranty replacement statement for 2 chargers p/n 1014963-00-G)

Not so much a glitch rather a work around to a technical problem. The charger shipped with the original cars could only handle 240v single phase at 16A. In the UK houses only have single phase supplies. This would have capped the rate to 3.6kW, so not enough to complete a charge overnight.

By using two chargers the load could be shared, giving a more usable 7.2kW charge rate, and the ability to do a full charge overnight.

 

[snellenr]

FWIW, I'm one of those that didn't order the dual charger and don't personally have a need for it. There used to be only a 1 or 2 high amp J1772 public chargers in the state, but there are now multiple HPWCs avail around AZ because of Tesla's destination charging program. I still feel the same way and don't plan on getting a 2nd charger installed -- I'm fine with charging at 10kW at home and using Superchargers on road trips. In 21 months, I've had one time where I could have taken advantage of dual chargers -- but there is now 2 Superchargers near that location.

As for the price change, the $500 increase from the factory option is exactly the same decrease from the original price of the HPWC. So if I were to add the 2nd charger and buy the HPWC now, it would be exactly the same as the original options when I ordered - $3250

I made the same decision when I purchased a year ago (when it was the 2nd charger + HPWC bundle for $1500). With daily driving that didn't need more than the existing 20-amp 240V circuit coupled with large costs to upgrade the wiring and the lack of high-power AC charging options around here (Texas), it didn't make much sense to me. I assumed that the option to add the module would still be available in the future, possibly at a lower cost as production volume ramped up and the electronics got cheaper (as they always do) -- it's nice to see that's the case.

Now, if they were to re-architect the two modules so that they provided a redundant set rather tha a master/secondary, I'd order it in a New York minute.

 

[flankspeed8]

Is it possible that as a couple have claimed that all cars will be shipped with dual charger standard and that the $2k fee will be strictly for OTA s/w update similar to Super Charging on the S60? Would make more sense IMO. Have heard about long wait times at SC's for basic repairs, can't imagine that it makes sense to place this strictly at the local SC especially until they get the network built out more. There is a large part of the population that is over 250 miles from the nearest center.

 

[gvands]

I don't know how it works elsewhere but overhere in Belgium, it's a good thing the dual chargers and some other things are moved to the accesories pages because this way
they won't be added to the "total price with accesories plus taxes" this total price is what's being used to calculate how much we have to pay personally when we buy a car with
our company. (with the Tesla it's 4% of this total price we have to pay each year.) So if they do it this way, the dual chargers won't be included in the total price, reducing the total
cost for us. The same goes for the mid console.

 

[iadbound]

Is it possible that as a couple have claimed that all cars will be shipped with dual charger standard and that the $2k fee will be strictly for OTA s/w update similar to Super Charging on the S60? Would make more sense IMO. Have heard about long wait times at SC's for basic repairs, can't imagine that it makes sense to place this strictly at the local SC especially until they get the network built out more. There is a large part of the population that is over 250 miles from the nearest center.

I doubt this. If it was $1,500 to have it installed at production and $3,600 to have it installed after production. Why would Tesla now install it at production and have the SC activate it for $2,000. Seems like a waste of resources to put extra chargers in the car when so many won't add it.

 

[Saghost]

Is it possible that as a couple have claimed that all cars will be shipped with dual charger standard and that the $2k fee will be strictly for OTA s/w update similar to Super Charging on the S60? Would make more sense IMO. Have heard about long wait times at SC's for basic repairs, can't imagine that it makes sense to place this strictly at the local SC especially until they get the network built out more. There is a large part of the population that is over 250 miles from the nearest center.

Seems pretty unlikely to me. In the Supercharger case, the hardware involved is minimal - basically an extra set of contactors, and the $2k is the car's buy in to support the network.

The second charger is a significant piece of hardware that Tesla could easily use elsewhere, and there's no obvious usage for your 'upgrade fee.'
Wallet

 

[breser]

I doubt this. If it was $1,500 to have it installed at production and $3,600 to have it installed after production. Why would Tesla now install it at production and have the SC activate it for $2,000. Seems like a waste of resources to put extra chargers in the car when so many won't add it.

Not necessarily. It's possible that the $500 is subsidizing the hardware in the vehicles that don't pay for it. Assuming that $1500 is near cost of the extra charger (probably not) then every 3 charges sold at the new $2000 price pays for one in another vehicle. So if 75% of the vehicles have dual chargers then by charge $2000 to activate it they eliminate a configuration difference from production, making production more efficient and the buyers of dual chargers finance it. The actual cost of the charger is probably less than the $1500. So their real numbers are probably better than this.

The flipside of this is that if they charge $2000 for chargers on vehicles that don't have them they'll stimulate a lot of dual charger installs on those cars (and presumably there was a good reason they were charging $3600 for doing it aftermarket before). But that's probably a temporary issue since eventually that surge of demand will fall off.

 

[TexasEV]

@flankspeed8, No, it's clear on the web site charging page that the cars come with the single charger. The only way to get dual charger is service center install. The $2000 fee on the accessories page is for the dual charger with installation.

I wonder if the car production people and the destination charging program people are talking to each other. Dropping dual chargers from the options available with ordering the car will decrease the number of cars that have dual chargers, which will make HPWC installation on circuits >50A less compelling to destinations. It's clearly not to stimulate sales-- if you want to stimulate sales you make it easy to order it with the car along with dropping the price for cars already on the road not just the latter.

 

[Jaff]

This makes perfect sense to me.

The dual charger threads here and in the past, reveal that the second charger issue initiates a very polarizing debate... some feel it is a complete waste of money, others wouldn't consider ordering a car without it... one's opinion appears to be driven by the high amperage L2 charging infrastructure in their own region.

If Tesla moves the addition of the second charger to the Service Center's where dual chargers are prevalent (like in Canada / Europe for example), it does free up valuable time on the assembly line...

No. I just exoect that Supercharger coverage and the CHAdeMO adapter are leading to lower take, along with a regional pattern, so they feel that it's better to move it to the service center.

 

[jvonbokel]

8. Security package is no longer available

What is (or was) the security package?

 

[cynix]

What is (or was) the security package?

It was a European-only package that provided a motion-activated car alarm running on an independent 12V battery.

When I enquired about getting it for my car, I was told that this package was offered in order to comply with EU regulations and is not available in other regions. I wonder now they can still comply with these regulations after removing this package from sale.

 

[smac]

It was a European-only package that provided a motion-activated car alarm running on an independent 12V battery.

When I enquired about getting it for my car, I was told that this package was offered in order to comply with EU regulations and is not available in other regions. I wonder now they can still comply with these regulations after removing this package from sale.

Or more importantly how was the car compliant with the regulations, if like me, you didn't order it ?

I suspect the standard security system didn't meet "Thatcham Category 1" requirements, due to lack of battery backup, which are generally stipulated on insurance policies here in the UK.

My insurance company haven't batted an eyelid, and I'm not aware of anyone that has had cover refused on this basis, but some have been asked to add separate "GPS Trackers" to their cars which does make a bit of a mockery of the value the security pack.

 

[cynix]

Or more importantly how was the car compliant with the regulations, if like me, you didn't order it ?

I just assumed that "the regulation" only required them to offer it as an option. Of course, in reality it's probably an official-sounding excuse they made up for not letting me order it.

 

[smac]

I just assumed that "the regulation" only required them to offer it as an option. Of course, in reality it's probably an official-sounding excuse they made up for not letting me order it.

True.

TBH I'm glad it's gone. It was actually a pretty negative thing to have as an option, when pretty much every other major manufacturer has had insurance approved alarms as standard for decades. Further detracting value I'm pretty sure the security pack wasn't Thatcham approved anyway.

So it was almost an admission on Tesla's part the car was under-equipped compared to rivals, and adding it gave virtually zero benefit as people tend to ignore alarms anyway, and you'd not get a discount on your insurance.

Here's the different levels. All of which must be certified and tested at the Thatcham test centre.

What is a Thatcham Category Car Alarm? | RAC

 

[fredag]

This is fascinating. I'd always assumed that the situation was the same across the EU but perhaps it is not.

In the UK all Model S cars are built with dual chargers installed whether they were ordered that way or not (Tesla will not admit this, but it's true).

If you only ordered single charger then for 3 phase charging there's a software-imposed 16A per phase limit (i.e. 11kW) but both chargers are present in the car and are used.

The result is that all UK Model S can charge at 32A single phase, whether or not it was specified with single or dual chargers. UK owners who have asked to upgrade to dual chargers after delivery (to get 22kW 3 phase charging) have been billed £1250 (the design studio price) and upgraded OTA with no service centre visit required.

Is this not the case in other European countries?

No. Not the case outside the UK, as far as I know.

At least not for the early Model S delivered to Europe 18 months ago.

I believe some Norwegians have upgraded from single chargers to dual, and the service centres had to physically add charger modules to their cars.

The Norwegian Tesla owner Laumb was in a dispute with Tesla because his car (one of the early European deliveries 18 months ago) couldn't charge at 7.6kW type2 outlets, despite the spec at the time he ordered said singe charger cars could.

If Tesla were to physically install dual chargers in all European cars, why not just make dual chargers the default for new orders? Why should activating dual chargers cost twice as much as before?

 

[smac]

Thanks for the clarification Fredag.

Out of interest, do you typically have 3 phase supplies at home in Norway?

Here it is a real rarity, and with our government grant system putting in Type-2 single phase 32A charge points at home we don't get the UMC with the car which I guess offsets some of the cost of shipping all UK cars with the physical dual hardware.

 

[LuckyLuke]

EU cars delivered on day one (like September 2013) have been able to charge 32A single phase when equipped with single charger. How? By using the blue UMC adapter. That blue adapter simply bridges the three phase pins of the UMC to the L pin on the blue adapter. Check the wiki here
Some French guy actually achieved 63A single phase (dual chargers), it's on these forums somewhere in the French section.
Being able to charge 32A single phase does not mean the car has dual chargers.

The Norwegian Tesla owner Laumb was in a dispute with Tesla because his car (one of the early European deliveries 18 months ago) couldn't charge at 7.6kW type2 outlets, despite the spec at the time he ordered said singe charger cars could.

This is expected, since 1x32A on single charger equipped car will only work when the phase pins are bridged, so either create your own type2 cable/charger that can do this (like the French guy did, do not try this if you don't know what you're doing) or use the UMC with the blue adapter.

 

[smac]

Thanks LuckyLuke, makes sense.

Mgboyes and I were discussing this. (on another more UK specific forum)

We don't get UMCs in the UK. Regular blue "commando" sockets are inelligible for the UK grant scheme, so we pretty much all have Type-2 Sockets, and would have faced the same problem Laumb had.

The fixes available I guess are a "specially" wired type-2 cable or socket, some sort of additional contactor hardware onboard the car that could do the same job by sensing the inbound supply and bonding the input phases into the chargers onboard the car, or as it turns out just building the UK cars with dual chargers with the saving from not* supplying the UMC partially funding it.

 

[Yggdrasill]

The fixes available I guess are a "specially" wired type-2 cable or socket, some sort of additional contactor hardware onboard the car that could do the same job by sensing the inbound supply and bonding the input phases into the chargers onboard the car, or as it turns out just building the UK cars with dual chargers with the saving from supplying the UMC partially funding it.

Specially wired Type 2 charging stations have been the solution for many Tesla owners here in Norway. Like this one This was an issue initially when the Model S came to Norway, because the charging solution providers hadn't been informed that the Model S needed the extra wiring, but that was sorted out in the first few weeks. (This isn't an option for the *public* Type 2 charging points, though, because it's not in line with the Type 2 specification.)

Thanks for the clarification Fredag.

Out of interest, do you typically have 3 phase supplies at home in Norway?

Norway is a bit special. Almost everyone has three phase, but not 400V TN like the rest of Europe. Instead we have a lot of 230V IT. And the Model S charger can't use all three phases with this connection. You're stuck with 230V 32A single phase from a 230V 32A three phase connection. Newer homes as well as businesses usually have 400V TN, though. Basically all new transformers are 400V TN, but we have a lot of older transformers out there. You can't just upgrade them either, because that means you need to rewire all the homes connected to that transformer, which is extremely costly.

 

[smac]

This isn't an option for the *public* Type 2 charging points, though, because it's not in line with the Type 2 specification.

I suspect this could have been the issue in the UK too. The grant initially had a list of a few eligible charge points, and none wired up outside spec. The intention of the grant wasn't to be car specific, and as UK government were picking up the bill I can see why they would be unwilling to allow proprietary points to be used.

Norway is a bit special. Almost everyone has three phase, but not 400V TN like the rest of Europe. Instead we have a lot of 230V IT. And the Model S charger can't use all three phases with this connection. You're stuck with 230V 32A from a 230V 32A three phase connection. Newer homes as well as businesses usually have 400V TN, though. Basically all new transformers are 400V TN, but we have a lot of older transformers out there. You can't just upgrade them either, because that means you need to rewire all the homes connected to that transformer, which is extremely costly.

Thanks, interesting, if only for my own personal curiosity