When do you charge?

[brucet999]

No, no TOU available if you have solar.

Fortunately I don't drive every day, so I'm playing with trying to charge over several days, turning the charge on and off as the sun comes out. A PITA, but just trying to get a feel for a pattern.

Basically if the meter runs backward, they pay me 5 cents/kWh, and if it runs forward, they charge me 9 cents/kWh. I have always been happy in the past (under net metering) when the meter ran backward. Now it actually means I'm losing money, in a way. I've been trying to come up with ways to concentrate my usage during the day, only washing clothes or running the dishwasher at while the panels are producing. I can't do much about a/c or heating use -- we need that when we need it.

It's more the principle of the thing -- my electric use is still never over $50. Just p/o that they changed the rules.

So your net metering does not total up kWh in and kWh out for 12 months and reconcile the difference at year end?

 

[doubleohwhat]

Bailed on the survey as well. It's not "brief" and starts collecting what feels like market research data.

So what's the ROI on a Powerwall with a $50/mo bill?

Eh, I wish I had that electric bill. We have fairly cheap power here. The adjusted (base fees, etc) standard rate is 12 cents/kWh. The TOU plan is basically 6 cents/kWh off-peak and 27 cents/kWh peak (Again, adjusted for base fees). However, our bill is still ~$250 in the winter and ~$450 in the summer.

We're on the TOU plan with a EV rate rider that brings our 9PM-5AM rate down to 4.5 cents/kWh. We wanted to install solar panels to help with the peak times but we discovered that our electric company is not solar friendly. As in they wanted to charge us $25/month to have the system online and buy excess power at below wholesale rates. We tried to negotiate a plan where there would be no monthly fee for us and they could have any excess power at no cost to them. They said no. So now we're looking at installing a few powerwalls and charging them during the 9PM-5AM window.

My point is, utilities are becoming the largest obstacle in the move towards solar.

 

[BerTX]

So your net metering does not total up kWh in and kWh out for 12 months and reconcile the difference at year end?

It did, then they changed the rules. Now I have what I call "second to second net metering".

 

[CHG-ON]

In the green zone View attachment 219816

My PGE EV costs are quite a bit less than yours.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I generally charge at midday to use my solar directly (and that of my neighbors since my car draws more kW than my panels produce). This is off-peak in my area, although I don't have TOU, because peak demand is mornings and evenings; we don't have AC in my mountain climate area. My power co-op lets me bank excess energy generated for years (up to 10,000 kWh) and use it whenever I want. I tend to draw down much of the banked kWhs in winter. I haven't paid an electricity bill, save for the monthly service charge, in years despite driving EVs for 5+ years.

 

[gregd]

PG&E Tool

EV rate plan is a lot cheaper for me.

PG&E Toolkit is an app on iPhone that costs $5 and saved me $500 by telling me which rate plan to use before I got my solar system and EV. Since then, PG&E has reduced the number of rate plans. However, their EV rate plan is by far and away the least expensive for those with an EV.

In my case, I don't drive all that much (retired now), and the ToU plans only help if you can shift load to the off-peak hours (late at night). Everything else gets hit with the peak rate, which is worse than all but the top tier on the non-ToU plan, if I recall the numbers correctly.

The only substantial discretionary load that I can shift is the car, which is minimal, and a once-a-week load of laundry (electric dryer), which is also pretty minimal. The A/C is isn't bad (I run the whole-house fan at night to cool the house), and even on our 100-degree summer days, it usually only runs from the late afternoon to maybe 8pm. Winter heat is gas. The Solar City guy says there's no place for panels (too much shade, which is a good thing).

So, these "EV" plans are set up such that if you do a lot of driving, and charge mostly at home late at night, you come out ahead. Otherwise, not so much.

I do have a solar-powered set of Christmas lights for the house, however. That count?

 

[BerTX]

I do have a solar-powered set of Christmas lights for the house, however. That count?

Only if you leave them up all year!

 

[Grunk]

The survey says 'we would like to understand' ... who is 'we'? Where is this info being used?

This is for me and two friends at this point. Through my volunteer work with an environmental group, I've helped shut down half a coal plant (2 of 4 boilers). Now after driving my Model S for a few years, I'm looking at lightening our footprint on the Earth through more ecologically sound EV charging. I have some ideas on how to really solve the "long tailpipe" argument against EV's as well as keep everyone's electric rates low, but it would need people to manage their car's charging with an app.

We're trying to figure out if there are any points of friction with EV charging worth solving via an app, based on understanding your utility rates and several other factors. This survey is to see if people would be willing to participate and whether we'd need to incentivize saving the world, even among the often-ecologically minded EV community.

 

[BerTX]

An app to save the world? You coulda led with that...

 

[davidc18]

One car is always plugged in when we are home. Switch the plug when one is charged to 90%. Keep it simple. Flat rate from FPL.

 

[Duke-U]

There is an app from a startup called Jedlix here in the Netherlands, that regulates charging as is proposed/envisioned by the OP. For now they focussed on Tesla's and public chargers, because of access through a set of API's. In case of the Tesla they switch charging on and off based on energy price on the electricity spot market. If it is low, they switch on, if it is high, they switch off. They also make sure the car is charged by the morning.

Also, there is a house energy device called Maxem (from a startup called Cohere) that can be set to charge the car when solar generation is available. They throttle the charge current (directly on the charger, not the car) depending on house usage and solar generated. I use it to prevent my main fuses to blow (I use a heatpump to warm/cool the house) and am very happy with it - I don't need to upgrade my panel.

So these tools are available. If you don't mind using Google translate, here is the thread about it: Ervaringen Jedlix - slim laden app

 

[Ulmo]

There is an app from a startup called Jedlix here in the Netherlands, that regulates charging as is proposed/envisioned by the OP. For now they focussed on Tesla's and public chargers, because of access through a set of API's. In case of the Tesla they switch charging on and off based on energy price on the electricity spot market. If it is low, they switch on, if it is high, they switch off. They also make sure the car is charged by the morning.

Also, there is a house energy device called Maxem (from a startup called Cohere) that can be set to charge the car when solar generation is available. They throttle the charge current (directly on the charger, not the car) depending on house usage and solar generated. I use it to prevent my main fuses to blow (I use a heatpump to warm/cool the house) and am very happy with it - I don't need to upgrade my panel.

So these tools are available. If you don't mind using Google translate, here is the thread about it: Ervaringen Jedlix - slim laden app

Why aren't these tools available in USA, home of Tesla?

All from memory, so I want to try again with clipboard for detailed data collection: I measured the voltage drop of my 11kW car charging session + ~5kW dryer + 500W water heater - ~3kW solar at home, showing ~15kW draw from PG&E: 242vac to 224vac. I then took my phone with Remote S around the neighborhood to check meter volts at various homes: home across street from me sharing same pole: 226V when charging, up to around 236V when I turned off car charge; variance of 10V depending on my 11kW draw. Next pole in direction of grid high voltage power flow, home with solar feeding net 600W into grid: 241V, regardless of me charging. Home sharing that pole: 241V. That pole has a pole pig*, but the 250V lines look continuous from our pole to theirs (typical hi voltage above, 250V voltage below continuous lines setup, from everything I can see). Other direction on grid from our home (upstream direction), home on next pole from ours gets 232V when I'm charging, 236V when I'm not; variance 4V to 5V depending on my 11kW draw. Home on next pole gets 236V, barely varies by maybe a volt or 2 when I shut off my car charge.

Our solar peaks above 5kW.

I'm thinking the voltage drop is showing we pull most our power from an upstream pig, and because we're at the far end of that run, we get lowest volts. But why won't the higher voltage of the next pig on the next pole (especially with its solar input) bring us electricity back? (236V+241V)/2=238.5V, but our neighbor still got 226V when we had 224V, shooting up to 236V when I turned my car charge off. Why not 238.5V for at least my neighbor, car charge on or off?

But, what all this means to me is that when solar is good during weekend midday off peak rates, I want to dump any excess into my car charging, but not when, e.g., I have our dryer on, or the water heater kicks on or other devices such as our dehumidifier and some space heaters. Of course, during weekday, off peak rates don't coincide with solar availability, so it's better to get the higher rate offset, but I'd still like the option of drawing during peak solar.

* Pole pig description at Distribution transformer - Wikipedia


-----

My PGE EV costs are quite a bit less than yours.

You mean the overnight rate? My overnight rate is similar to his overnight rate. I live close to you, so perhaps regional differences?

I generally charge at midday to use my solar directly (and that of my neighbors since my car draws more kW than my panels produce). This is off-peak in my area, although I don't have TOU, because peak demand is mornings and evenings; we don't have AC in my mountain climate area. My power co-op lets me bank excess energy generated for years (up to 10,000 kWh) and use it whenever I want. I tend to draw down much of the banked kWhs in winter. I haven't paid an electricity bill, save for the monthly service charge, in years despite driving EVs for 5+ years.

Awesome, except I see a loophole in that awesomeness: what is your monthly service charge?

In my case, I don't drive all that much (retired now), and the ToU plans only help if you can shift load to the off-peak hours (late at night). Everything else gets hit with the peak rate, which is worse than all but the top tier on the non-ToU plan, if I recall the numbers correctly.

The only substantial discretionary load that I can shift is the car, which is minimal, and a once-a-week load of laundry (electric dryer), which is also pretty minimal. The A/C is isn't bad (I run the whole-house fan at night to cool the house), and even on our 100-degree summer days, it usually only runs from the late afternoon to maybe 8pm. Winter heat is gas. The Solar City guy says there's no place for panels (too much shade, which is a good thing).

So, these "EV" plans are set up such that if you do a lot of driving, and charge mostly at home late at night, you come out ahead. Otherwise, not so much.

I do have a solar-powered set of Christmas lights for the house, however. That count?

I forgot about that usage pattern. Thank you for correcting my error.

 

[bonnie]

This is for me and two friends at this point. Through my volunteer work with an environmental group, I've helped shut down half a coal plant (2 of 4 boilers). Now after driving my Model S for a few years, I'm looking at lightening our footprint on the Earth through more ecologically sound EV charging. I have some ideas on how to really solve the "long tailpipe" argument against EV's as well as keep everyone's electric rates low, but it would need people to manage their car's charging with an app.

We're trying to figure out if there are any points of friction with EV charging worth solving via an app, based on understanding your utility rates and several other factors. This survey is to see if people would be willing to participate and whether we'd need to incentivize saving the world, even among the often-ecologically minded EV community.

Thanks for the reply.

I suggest working with PlugIn America to gain a broader understanding of charging behavior among electric vehicle owners. We have a couple of active board members here on the forum. But the best way would be to contact through their website, PlugInAmerica.org. No need to go it alone, when they've been gathering info on drivers and organizing for years.

 

[Xenius]

No time of use system here in PA, so, whenever I want. Typically between 4-6am.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...Awesome, except I see a loophole in that awesomeness: what is your monthly service charge?...

Our service charge was recently raised to $18/month. A power co-op insider has told me that an even distribution would be $24/month per meter, so net-metering is still being subsidized here (and the co-op offers rebates for solar panels and EVs, reflecting the views of the members). The monthly service charge is likely higher than in other places because of the cost of building and maintaining a sprawling grid that serves just 13,000 meters spread over some of the most rugged terrain in the lower 48. Not many utilities have to deal with avalanches wiping out their power lines!

 

[EV Revolution]

I don't have yet an EV but I'd to be able to charge on the go, like once a week, the same way I fill up my current ice car.

I live in a big city where the majority of the apartment buildings are old.

I don't see realistic to provide a plug to all of the parking lots inside those older apartment buildings, for at least 10 years.

This is more complex than installing a cable TV to each apartment.

Even installing a simple L1 110v 15 A, to each spot would be a complex endeavor, especially when the parking lots are outside a building.

I imagine that in most of the case a subscription system, taking care of the installation, maintenance, and payment would be the only practical solution, as it not always possible to associate the same apartment meter with a particular parking spot.

Also, a large majority of cars are park in the street, and I don't see how all those free parking. after 6 pm, will be now reserved for EVs.

Also, for practicality reasons, I don't want to have to charge my car every time I stop and park, especially during the day just to get some extra miles.

I really need to keep my flexibility of be able to start my busy day even with a low battery.

And be able to charge at any time using a fast super charger, the same way I go to a gas station.

I'm sure that may user expect the same flexibility than finding a gas station.

 

[GSP]

@EV Revolution,

Your situation is not ideal. It is much better to be able to plug in nightly.

However it can work with a 200-300 mile car and conveniently located DC fast chargers. For example, if there is a supercharger at a Mejiers near you, then you can "fill" the car while you grocery shop.

Depending on how long you spend in the grocery store, and how many miles you drive per week, you might need to make another charge stop between weekly grocery stops. You could perhaps go out to eat at a restaurant near the supercharger, go for a short walk, or just stay in the car and catch up with email.

GSP

 

[sdorn]

I don't have yet an EV but I'd to be able to charge on the go, like once a week, the same way I fill up my current ice car.

I live in a big city where the majority of the apartment buildings are old.

I don't see realistic to provide a plug to all of the parking lots inside those older apartment buildings, for at least 10 years.

This is more complex than installing a cable TV to each apartment.

Even installing a simple L1 110v 15 A, to each spot would be a complex endeavor, especially when the parking lots are outside a building.

I imagine that in most of the case a subscription system, taking care of the installation, maintenance, and payment would be the only practical solution, as it not always possible to associate the same apartment meter with a particular parking spot.

Also, a large majority of cars are park in the street, and I don't see how all those free parking. after 6 pm, will be now reserved for EVs.

Also, for practicality reasons, I don't want to have to charge my car every time I stop and park, especially during the day just to get some extra miles.

I really need to keep my flexibility of be able to start my busy day even with a low battery.

And be able to charge at any time using a fast super charger, the same way I go to a gas station.

I'm sure that may user expect the same flexibility than finding a gas station.

Yes, the EV infrastructure and EV technology is not quite where it needs to be in order for many apartment dwellers to drive an EV, unless they have access to EV charging at work (which many do). The Tesla supercharging infrastructure is not robust enough to handle regular charging by local owners, and the other networks (Blink, ChargePoint, etc.) still have a long way to go with respect to providing faster charging at reasonable prices not to mention the geographic coverage issues.

The technology just isn't there yet for gas station comparable recharging speed either. Sure, you can add 100 miles of range in 15 minutes or so in the right circumstances, but you can't add 400 - 500 miles of range in 5 minutes like you can with an ICE vehicle at a gas station. That technology is still several years out I am afraid.