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Which Snows and Why Poll?

Which Snow Poll

  • Michelin X-Ice XI3

    Votes: 98 35.9%
  • Nokian R3

    Votes: 62 22.7%
  • Nokian WR G3

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Nokian WR G4

    Votes: 10 3.7%
  • Continental ContiWinterContact

    Votes: 12 4.4%
  • Vredestein Wintrac Pro

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Vredestein Quatrac 5 Tires

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Blizzak LM-32

    Votes: 4 1.5%
  • Blizzak LM001

    Votes: 10 3.7%
  • Pirelli Sottozero 3

    Votes: 25 9.2%
  • Pirelli Sottozero 2

    Votes: 21 7.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 26 9.5%

  • Total voters
    273
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RWD

Michelin X-Ice XI3 - 225/45R18

Good reviews and 40k mile treadlife warranty.

I've been driving around on them this week and they feel at least equivalent, if not better than the MXM4s for road noise and comfort. Efficiency of my new wheels with them are also in the same ballpark as the 18 in aero wheels.
 
Are they on in the right direction?
What pressure did you run before on OEM vs Xi3.

Maybe it depends what your driving on? But I find them quieter.

Not that I think it should matter, are you on the same rims and covers?

mounted correctly. mounted on my 18 aeros.
i agree, i dont care about the sound too much.
but dont you think that snow tires are quieter than all seaon, which had foam to make it even quieter?
i mostly drive highway if that matters.
psi is a few lbs more
i used to do 42psi cold, but these are set to 44psi.
 
Based on several reports of bent 20" rims I'd strongly advise not using 20" OEM wheels for Winter. Unless your winters are pothole-less.

In our experience, 20in wheels are still viable for snow tires. You're only going to get bent rims if you bottom the suspension out, and actually the Colder Weather which stiffens your shocks makes that less likely. I understand the generic caution that in Winter one wants more sidewall and a downsizing of the wheel, but the notion that you're almost guaranteed to get bent rims particularly the OEM rims which are built like a brick s---house, seems factually unsupported. At least in our experience. I was initially quite concerned about the summer Tire bottoming out and bending rims but that hasn't happened either. And by the way we live in New Hampshire and I travel frequently to Massachusetts which has some of the worst roads in the country
 
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Agreed - In winter, I've been running 20" snows (on the OEM wheels) on my S6 since I bought it and haven't had issues.

In my experience, OEM wheels are generally stronger than cast-aluminum aftermarket wheels - I'm hoping this proves true with the M3P as well...

You are correct about the OEM wheels – they are actually "rotary flow cast" which makes the barrel stronger, and the spokes are overbuilt– So they'll take a real wallop before they'll deform.
 
I want to update this thread with my direct experienced with both the Nokian Hakka R3s and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM001 on my dual motor 3.

I live in the Colorado front range highlands. We get some serious storms where snow tires would be advised (although you can get by with really good all season tires and all wheel drive)... on my BMW 3 series cars I just ran the all seasons year round and I was fine. If the weather was really bad I just drove our SUV. With the Model 3 being a complete torque monster and the factory Michelin's being apparently horrific in sleet snow or ice I bit the bullet and jumped on the first tire I could get ahold of this late in the season that came well recommended.

Seeing the very high recommendation here I had Hakka R3 tires installed by Discount tire a couple of weeks ago. They have an extremely aggressive tread pattern but I noticed immediately upon driving off with them how much the handling of the car was suffering. I don't drive my car like I stole it but I do love the razor sharp turn in of the Model 3 with the stock Michelins and the almost complete lack of body roll or tail bob when cornering.

The Nokian's basically felt like I was driving on springy marshmallows. There was noticeable tail bob and when cornering even moderately there was noticeable body roll that was not present with the stock tires. There was some vagueness in the front end steering which was no longer laser like. Final insult they were quite noisy, even at moderate speeds I have on my morning commute of 40-50mph.

I talked to Discount Tire and they wanted to make sure that drivers understood that the Hakka R3 is not a performance snow tire ... it is a maximum traction snow tire that is designed for extreme winter driving conditions. The Nokian tires have a lot of sidewall flex which has some advantages when driven in max winter conditions. This is a detriment when driving in dry conditions. The tires also carry a lower speed rating than the factory tires which is also an indicator of how "sporty" they are.

If 90% of your driving is on dry roads, like mine is, and you crave the sharp handling of a car like the Model 3, then you might not be happy with the Nokian's. On the other hand if you drive in serious winter conditions frequently, and are forced to drive regularly on unplowed roads, then the Nokian might be a good choice.

In the quest for a more performance oriented tire I looked specifically at tires that are designed for performance cars.

I wanted to switch out to the Pirelli SottoZero 2 XL but they were sold out nationally. I also considered the Michelin Alpin, but they weren't available in the 235/45/R18 size... ditto with the Dunlop Wintersport M4s (I had those on my Audi and loved them).

Discount Tire strongly recommended to give the Blizzak LM001 a shot and said I would love them. I hesitated due to their high price and middling reviews but ended up getting them put on.

They have transformed the winter ride of the car and I am much happier now. Handling is 90% as good as the factory rubber and they are actually super quiet, just as quiet as the Michelin's from what I can tell.

I'm not sure what the efficiency hit is but it looks like it might be on the order of a 3% hit using these instead of "green" low rolling resistance tires like the Nokian's.

Just wanted to provide a micro review of these two tires.
 
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I want to update this thread with my direct experienced with both the Nokian Hakka R3s and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM001 on my dual motor 3... the Hakka R3 is not a performance snow tire ... it is a maximum traction snow tire that is designed for extreme winter driving conditions...
Discount Tire strongly recommended to give the Blizzak LM001 a shot...

Just wanted to provide a micro review of these two tires.

Great information and mirrors what I've read about the Hakkas. My DT guy actually found me a set of the "sold out" Michelin Pilot Alpin 4s, and I'm hoping I like those as well as the Dunlop WinterSport 4Ds I ran on my Audi S6.
 
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Great information and mirrors what I've read about the Hakkas. My DT guy actually found me a set of the "sold out" Michelin Pilot Alpin 4s, and I'm hoping I like those as well as the Dunlop WinterSport 4Ds I ran on my Audi S6.

@Zcd,

You’ll love the Michelin PA4s. Been running them for a month now and they’re amazing. Every bit as good as the PSs traction wise and I ran a decibel meter on both and noise is identical so just as quiet. They’re not PS4s but damn I’m impressed. Rockin them on 20’s. Best of both worlds.

Ski
 
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Nokians have always been overkill for most of the US winter driving. Even in the Northeast we don’t use them. Most of the winter is dry and other snow tires, even high performance snows, provide excellent dry/snow traction, especially with AWD.

My experience, all awesome:

High Performance:

Dunlop SP Winter Sport M3
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3

Normal Snows:

Michelin X-ICE Xi3
Blizzak WS80
 
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Nokians have always been overkill for most of the US winter driving. Even in the Northeast we don’t use them. Most of the winter is dry and other snow tires, even high performance snows, provide excellent dry/snow traction, especially with AWD.

My experience, all awesome:

High Performance:

Dunlop SP Winter Sport M3
Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3

Normal Snows:

Michelin X-ICE Xi3
Blizzak WS80

2 of our vehicles are currently running the Blizzaks - agreed - excellent.
 
Nokians are not overkill. Or for “extreme winters”. They are just awesome winter tires. I’ve been running them for like 30 years. I typically buy ONE set for the life of the car. My wife’s car had 230K miles on it when we sold it. It was still on the original snows. They have saved my butt to many times to remember. The ONLY reason I didn’t get them this time is because of how sensitive model 3 is to tire noise. And got Xi3 instead. And I’m VERY happy with them. It’s the most popular tire in the poll. Next to Nokian.

It’s really hard to predict winters in New England. It might be a foot of snow for a winter or 20 feet. I don’t PLAN to be caught in a storm.

If you drive it like you stole it you won’t be happy with a full winter tire. You’ll probably wear your tires out fast too (winter or summer).
 
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Nokians have always been overkill for most of the US winter driving. Even in the Northeast we don’t use them. Most of the winter is dry and other snow tires, even high performance snows, provide excellent dry/snow traction, especially with AWD.

To add another data point, I've been running the Pirelli Sottozero 2's on my Stealth P3D for the past 2 months and have been loving them. They have noticably less traction in greasy snow than some of the more extreme winter tires but the Model 3 handles so well in the slippery stuff I'm more than willling to take that in return for their crisp driving dynamics,and overall excellent traction on a wide variety of winter surfaces. They have brought the fun back into winter driving.
 
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@mswlogo I lived in Boston for 7 years and I have family in Laconia, NH, so I agree about NE weather.

The trade-off during the majority of dry winter driving makes Nokians overkill in my book. As long as you have a good AWD system, the major snow tire models are awesome. (and I like driving in snow). Even high performance snow tires do a great job with the right system. I’ve always had manual Subarus which are beasts in the winter.
 
@mswlogo I lived in Boston for 7 years and I have family in Laconia, NH, so I agree about NE weather.

The trade-off during the majority of dry winter driving makes Nokians overkill in my book. As long as you have a good AWD system, the major snow tire models are awesome. (and I like driving in snow). Even high performance snow tires do a great job with the right system. I’ve always had manual Subarus which are beasts in the winter.

AWD has little to do with it.

I buy the same snows for FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD.

Boston isn’t as bad as West of 495. 40+ years West of 495 and regularly go North of Cannon Mtn in NH. Also have a cabin on a lake with a long inclined driveway and snow blows off the lake once frozen.

I considered a performance snow. And ruled them all out one by one for various reasons. But a common theme was they didn’t last. And after just 2 seasons they are very poor in snow. Lots of comments that reviewers were happy they got 3 seasons. I would expect to get 8 seasons out of Nokians (~6k miles a winter). Not sure what I’ll get out of Xi3’s but they have 40,000 tread life warranty, they should hold up good.

Black Ice is also a killer, and pretty common even in light winters. You just never know when you might hit a patch.

What’s different for folks is what folks have had to deal with in their driving years.

Folks need to make their own trade offs. And yes dry days are common even bad winters. And performance snows are an option with their own drawbacks. But to say good AWD makes full snows unnecessary and only for extreme winters is nonsense.

I’d love to see some snow tire tests after 12,000 miles on them.
 
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^^^ nailed it. I also am a huge Nokian fan (as most of you all know) up here in Alaska. Most people I know that run blizzaks (they buy them because they are cheep at Costco) go 2 winters max on a set. We ran XICE for 2 winters 8-9 years ago and their performance greatly degraded over the 2nd winter, when we couldn’t get Nokians that would fit my wife’s e class. We are on our 7th winter on the Hakka 5’s on our MB and they still have exceptional traction and ~40% tread remaining according to the indicators. I’ll probably get new ones next winter because I don’t like to keep tires much more than 7 years no matter what the tread looks like. I’m on my 5th winter on Hakka 7’s on my LX570 and will get at least one more winter after this one.
 
It’s really hard to predict winters in New England. It might be a foot of snow for a winter or 20 feet. I don’t PLAN to be caught in a storm.

I ski 50-60 days at Mt. Baker, in the heart of the North Cascades in northern Washington. Even in a bad winter they get at least 27-30 feet of snow each year, In a really good winter, it can be over 90 feet (although the average is only a bit over 50 feet). So, yes, I not only plan to be caught in multiple huge storms, I thrive on them. When it's blowing hard and the plow has been busy elsewhere, deep drifts form across the road and there are no other tire tracks, it's like complete wilderness. One night, going up the mountain road, I had to back up and ram a particularly stubborn snowdrift 5 times to get through it because there was an ice layer underneath. That was in the early 1990's when I would buy the most capable winter radials available. They drove terrible on bare/wet pavement and I don't think they worked any better in snow and ice than the current crop of Performance Winter tires (currently running the Pirelli Sottozero 2's which are great).

I've already been through 3 major storms and this winter was late to get going. The P3D with the Sottozero's rips it up in the winter nasties. The cornering in sketchy winter storm conditions is amazing. Winter tires have come a long way baby! And so have cars. The Model 3's low center of gravity limited body roll keep the inside tires gripping during hard cornering. It distributes the weight more evenly to all four tires and the fast acting stability and traction controls benefit from this more even weight distribution. Because it applies the inside brakes to help the vehicle hold the line through corners. With more weight on the inside tires, the electronic controls can work their magic that much better. It's a night and day difference compared to every ICE ski car I've driven. The Model 3 in the snow and ice puts Subaru's to shame.

If you drive it like you stole it you won’t be happy with a full winter tire. You’ll probably wear your tires out fast too (winter or summer).

I drive a lot of twisties on a backcountry State Highway to get to Mt. Baker. Because I make the trip so many times a year I tend to drive the highway in the off-hours when I won't be held up by traffic and I tend to drive it pretty hard. I've been super pleased with the Sottozero's when I'm driving it like I stole it. And, yes, they are a "full winter tire". It's the rubber compound that makes them a real winter tire and allows them to get traction on ice. Around 50 degrees F they get noticeably greasy on bare pavement if you allow them to get too warm (which is what happens if you don't run enough air pressure). But this greasiness is nothing compared to the terrible handling of more extreme winter tires which feel like driving on sponges covered with fish guts (and that's before they get too warm). I've been running the Pirelli's at 46 PSI stone cold and avoid hard continuous cornering and hard acceleration if it's 50F or warmer. Short tread life is most often the result of neglecting air pressure or thinking a low air pressure is needed to maximize traction. I've found higher pressures to work better, not only for traction but to maximize tread life. You can ruin the snow/ice performance of a winter tire by too much heat cycling (running too low of a pressure). It seems that some people think that checking their tire pressure is optional or not very important.

What good is a winter tire that lasts 5 or 6 winters when you can't wait to get them off in the spring? I want a tire that I'm going to enjoy driving and keeps us safe. The Pirelli's take to hard cornering with the precision of a scalpel. If they only last 3 winters, that is a small price to pay.
 
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@mswlogo I
The trade-off during the majority of dry winter driving makes Nokians overkill in my book. As long as you have a good AWD system, the major snow tire models are awesome. (and I like driving in snow). Even high performance snow tires do a great job with the right system.

I tend to agree but not due to a "good AWD system" rather it's the driving dynamics of the vehicle in slippery conditions. And the Model 3 has excellent driving dynamics in the slick. Subaru's are good, the Model 3 is better.
 
I ski 50-60 days at Mt. Baker, in the heart of the North Cascades in northern Washington. Even in a bad winter they get at least 27-30 feet of snow each year, In a really good winter, it can be over 90 feet (although the average is only a bit over 50 feet). So, yes, I not only plan to be caught in multiple huge storms, I thrive on them. When it's blowing hard and the plow has been busy elsewhere, deep drifts form across the road and there are no other tire tracks, it's like complete wilderness. One night, going up the mountain road, I had to back up and ram a particularly stubborn snowdrift 5 times to get through it because there was an ice layer underneath. That was in the early 1990's when I would buy the most capable winter radials available. They drove terrible on bare/wet pavement and I don't think they worked any better in snow and ice than the current crop of Performance Winter tires (currently running the Pirelli Sottozero 2's which are great).

I've already been through 3 major storms and this winter was late to get going. The P3D with the Sottozero's rips it up in the winter nasties. The cornering in sketchy winter storm conditions is amazing. Winter tires have come a long way baby! And so have cars. The Model 3's low center of gravity limited body roll keep the inside tires gripping during hard cornering. It distributes the weight more evenly to all four tires and the fast acting stability and traction controls benefit from this more even weight distribution. Because it applies the inside brakes to help the vehicle hold the line through corners. With more weight on the inside tires, the electronic controls can work their magic that much better. It's a night and day difference compared to every ICE ski car I've driven. The Model 3 in the snow and ice puts Subaru's to shame.



I drive a lot of twisties on a backcountry State Highway to get to Mt. Baker. Because I make the trip so many times a year I tend to drive the highway in the off-hours when I won't be held up by traffic and I tend to drive it pretty hard. I've been super pleased with the Sottozero's when I'm driving it like I stole it. And, yes, they are a "full winter tire". It's the rubber compound that makes them a real winter tire and allows them to get traction on ice. Around 50 degrees F they get noticeably greasy on bare pavement if you allow them to get too warm (which is what happens if you don't run enough air pressure). But this greasiness is nothing compared to the terrible handling of more extreme winter tires which feel like driving on sponges covered with fish guts (and that's before they get too warm). I've been running the Pirelli's at 46 PSI stone cold and avoid hard continuous cornering and hard acceleration if it's 50F or warmer. Short tread life is most often the result of neglecting air pressure or thinking a low air pressure is needed to maximize traction. I've found higher pressures to work better, not only for traction but to maximize tread life. You can ruin the snow/ice performance of a winter tire by too much heat cycling (running too low of a pressure). It seems that some people think that checking their tire pressure is optional or not very important.

What good is a winter tire that lasts 5 or 6 winters when you can't wait to get them off in the spring? I want a tire that I'm going to enjoy driving and keeps us safe. The Pirelli's take to hard cornering with the precision of a scalpel. If they only last 3 winters, that is a small price to pay.

I’m sure the Sottozeros are fine, whennew. I just can’t justify buying new snow tires every 2-3 seasons. They are also not rated very good on efficiency. The lack of finding 98 load rating, mediocre reviews, higher rolling resistance and short life span eliminated them for me.

You can cherry pick attributes of any tire.
 
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So I’m guessing you live in the city and drive into the mountains to ski? If so most of your winter is not on winter roads. Also I grew up in Tahoe and the cascades and sierras have similar winter/snow/conditions. I went to boarding school/ski academy for 4 years in VT and now over a decade in Alaska. So a big difference between New England and cascades/Sierras is the costal western ranges don’t get ice, 22 years in Tahoe and I never really saw ice. Also fresh snow has fairly good traction. So fresh snow on the roads gives better traction then old packed down snow and ice. Many people I knew in Tahoe ran snowflake rated ATs like BFG KO2s for this reason. Also you don’t really get cold. Not like New England cold, central Canada, Alaska cold. I’ve also skied in your neck of the woods a lot back in my USSA/FIS days and 3 decades of summers on Hood so pretty familiar with your weather/conditions.

I ski 50-60 days at Mt. Baker, in the heart of the North Cascades in northern Washington. Even in a bad winter they get at least 27-30 feet of snow each year, In a really good winter, it can be over 90 feet (although the average is only a bit over 50 feet).

Yes my home resort Alyeska and Baker are #1 and #2 most years for snowfall. Alyeska was over 110 feet winter of 2011-2012


Because it applies the inside brakes to help the vehicle hold the line through corners. With more weight on the inside tires, the electronic controls can work their magic that much better. It's a night and day difference compared to every ICE ski car I've driven. The Model 3 in the snow and ice puts Subaru's to shame.

This is not close to true. I’ve talked to Tesla a few times and they do not currently have vector breaking in their ESC like Subaru (and pretty much everyone else). This is why straight line traction is great! Cournering not so much...

I’m glad the Perilli’s are working for you and they (or the XIce, WR G4, Blizzak,...) are a good choice for someone who dosnt live in a winter climate but drives into the mountains from time to time.

And again I don’t know anyone in Alaska that run sottozeros. I know one guy that got them with his 911 4s winter wheels and changed them out within a month for hakka’s. I’ve even been paying attention and haven’t seen one car up here with them this winter.