of course Tesla will make it easy, after all public utilities are now investing to become the generic high speed chargers of choice, so Tesla will help. Unlike some I think the more entrants with powerful BEV's the better for Tesla.
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$200 million a year (for 10 years) in legally-mandated spending will include building 200+ high power highway charging plazas (think Tesla Supercharger...) across the entire US.
Initial plans approved by spring 2017. Construction starts later this year.
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The CHAdeMO standards association recently announced they are moving to 150 & 350 kW capability in close alignment with what CharIn is doing to CCS. This is presumably driven by Nissan who needs to stay competitive and by the charger equipment vendors who want to provide dual protocol versions of their new 350A CCS chargers next year.
http://www.chademo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2016-06-01_High_power_CHAdeMO.pdf
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I want a CCS adapter as well, for the reasons you mentioned. I have been holding off on buying a second CHAdeMo for my wifes Tesla because I am hoping for the CCS adapter. I have trouble understanding why they don't have one yet, if it's so simple (especially when compared to the CHADeMo monster) and the only reason I can come up with is that the vast majority of stations are Combo CHADeMo/CCS stations, so there is no need. Otherwise, it seems like a no brainer.
My opinion is that there is no need to release another adapter that is limited to 125 amps DC like the CHAdeMO adapter is. If they're going to release a CCS adapter it should be capable of at least 250 amps DC. They shouldn't release it until those stations are installed in public and they have done extensive testing with those chargers. They can start testing with charging equipment vendors now, but I think Tesla learned a lot about how screwy CHAdeMO chargers were. They should be very cautious and release the new adapter only when they are sure that they work well with all the deployed chargers.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
CHAdeMO and CCS have nearly identical specifications, however CHAdeMO has always published their various actual specifications first:
50kW = 500 volts max * 125 amps max (really 62.5kW capable)
100kW = 500 volts max * 200 amps (max initial design)
150kW = 500 volts max * 350 amps (2017 launch, really 175kW capable)
350kW = 1000 volts max *350 amps (proposed summer 2016 for CHAdeMO)
350kW = 850 volts max * 400 amps (possible CCS only configuration)
CCS only is quite rare compared to CHAdeMO only locations. Most (overwhelmingly) new public DC fast charger installations are both CCS and CHAdeMO. There is no power advantage or disadvantage with power for either.
Supercharger is currently:
135kW = 400 volts * 330 amps
145kW = 400 volts * 365 amps
750kW = ???? Proposed to be "over 350kW" Dec 2016 by Mr. Musk via Twitter - I think 1500 volts at 500 amps with a robot.
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TonyWilliams
Active Member
It was short sighted to limit any adaptor to a value below its specification (CHAdeMO had 200 amps for eons).
I agree, any future adaptor should be at 350-400 amps for the various public DC fast charge protocols around the world.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I was the one that started the CCS thread back then. If it was a "dumb" adapter, then it should not cost significantly more than the current J1772 one ($95 separately, free with car). From the analysis of the pin assignments back then, it is possible to build a dumb adapter if the car handled PLC (this is not possible for the CHAdeMO case because the Tesla connector has less pins than the bare minimum for CHAdeMO to work). Of course, if it was an active adapter, then the cost would be around the same as the CHAdeMO.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think the adapter was released limited because the reality of the real world had many CHAdeMO chargers that were even lower in practical use due to overheating (because they were not designed for a charging session as long as Teslas would need). And back then there was no indication that CHAdeMO had intent of pushing higher power as a feature. Even today, 200A CHadeMO chargers are almost non-existent in the US.
As for CCS, Tesla is on the Charin group, so this time they should be prepared for additional power.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Only one brand of charger had overheating issues, and that was the Nissan / Sumitomo unit. Tesla didn't build an adaptor for a brand of charger; it's for a protocol, which was spec'd at 200 amps when they designed the adaptor, and now the spec is 350 amps.
It's as silly as the 60kWh Bolt being restricted to 125 amps, when any modern 60kWh car should easily take 200 amps, and even 350 amps for a short time... like a Tesla.
I suspect that Tesla just looked around and saw 125 amp everything, and designed around that. Yes, it probably wouldn't be difficult for Tesla to redesign and update for higher power.
I think that I have posted this a few times now... Tesla was and is a member of the CHAdeMO Association before there was a "CCS group". CCS offers no protocol of power higher than CHAdeMO.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Tesla would have to add the oddball PLC communication to the car or the adaptor.
Not every car will have or want an adaptor for the regional specific CCS. So, logically, the extra bits should stay with the adaptor. When they are building over 100,000 cars per year, they aren't going to toss in unneeded hardware because somebody might buy an adaptor.
That applies to all manufacturers.
The only reason we have a dumb adapter for J1772 is that the car already uses the electronic interface standard.
Supercharger communications are quite different from CCS communications as I understand it.
davewill
Active Member
People keep ignoring that the main impetus for the CHAdeMO adapter was that selling to the Japanese market pretty much required it. Without that, I don't think there would be an adapter at all. Until CCS becomes "necessary" to sell cars somewhere, I wouldn't hold my breath for an adapter for it.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The Nissan/Sumitomo unit was and probably still is the most popular unit in the field. Also, the 125A was inherent in CHAdeMO from the start: pretty much all the connectors and wiring was designed for 125A, and CHAdeMO continually refers to 50kW as optimal (20kW as also making sense in some areas), even though on paper it can go to 200A. And as I said, back in October 2013 (when Tesla announced the adapter; development likely was even earlier) there was no indication CHAdeMO had any intention to push even 200A in any significant way, much less 350A. Everyone seemed to assume 125A was it for CHAdeMO.
Optimal output power — CHAdeMO Association
Tesla was and remains only a regular member to get access to the protocol (same with every other regular member). If there was an option to get access to the full protocol (as there is today now that CHAdeMO changed to an open standard), I doubt Tesla would have joined.
In contrast, Tesla had active participation in shaping the CCS protocol and is a core member of Charin (not just a regular member) and has say in how the standard develops. And I remember reading in a Porsche statement that Tesla was working with them on the 350kW charging standard.
Our Members: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
TonyWilliams
Active Member
The same could be said of ANY adaptor... it will be cheaper if it is "dumb" rather than "smart" with electronics. For the people promoting a dumb CCS adaptor, Tesla has to pay to put the CCS communication somewhere;
1) The communication goes in the adapter
2) Or it goes on every single car
I hope you can imagine that it would be quite silly to have cars sold in Japan or China that have hardware for CCS, correct?
It is equally silly to equip every car sold in North America or Europe with communication protocol for CCS when not everybody will buy the adapter. I doubt even 10% buy the current CHAdeMO adaptor, and I would expect the uptake rate for a CCS adapter to be far, far lower. Any of the current CCS standalone stations in North America tend to be extremely low powered (25kW). Normally, if there is a CCS station at all, sitting right next to that plug is a CHAdeMO plug. In addition, CHAdeMO significantly out numbers the two regional CCS protocols combined.
Tesla obviously knows that any CCS adapter will sell at a lower rate than the current adaptor.
So, using some real basic cost measures that every car manufacture must go through , they are not going to equip all the Tesla cars with CCS communication... it's just not going to happen.
That means that any future "foreign" adapter will have the proper communication with it, just like a CHAdeMO adapter does.
In summary, you want the adapter to be cheaper so you can buy it cheaper (and that's great for you), but that's not how an auto manufacturer looks at it. Tesla already has its own DC fast charging system, plus an adapter for another that is common worldwide (well, except Tesla cars have unique plugs in EU versus Japan / North America, so it is two adaptors).
They obviously will build regional adaptors for GB/T in China, as well as a regional SAE CCS Combo 1 in North America and another unique adapter for CCS Combo 2 in Europe. Tesla is not going to provide native CCS communication anymore than it's going to provide native CHAdeMO or GB/T.
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TonyWilliams
Active Member
TonyWilliams
Active Member
Ah, yes, the CCS promotion board. Tesla doesn't need any help from Porsche or CCS or anybody else to build their fast DC charging network.
Would you believe that I have been asked numerous times to join that same group? If I had joined, would you have the same opinion of me and CCS?
Anyhoo, I think things are vividly self apparent.
I just spoke to somebody who's quite deep in the CCS stuff (operates a big network in the Netherlands) and he told me that there will probably never be a CCS <> Model S/X adapter.
Two reasons:
- CCS does not allow any adapters in the specs
- CCS connector doesn't have locking in it
The last is important. With CHAdeMO there is locking in the connector. That's how the current CHAdeMO connector locks in the adapter. With CCS the locking needs to happen by the vehicle and that would be rather difficult to put in to a CCS adapter. Combine that with CCS not allowing adapters the chances are slim.
We might see a updated CHAdeMO adapter which can handle 250A.
Two reasons:
- CCS does not allow any adapters in the specs
- CCS connector doesn't have locking in it
The last is important. With CHAdeMO there is locking in the connector. That's how the current CHAdeMO connector locks in the adapter. With CCS the locking needs to happen by the vehicle and that would be rather difficult to put in to a CCS adapter. Combine that with CCS not allowing adapters the chances are slim.
We might see a updated CHAdeMO adapter which can handle 250A.
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