Winter Range Anxiety - P85D , can I keep this car?

[sandpiper]

You are missing the point entirely. We don't need a debate about EVs vs ICE in this thread. What we need is to figure out if Tesla sold something different than what they marketed to us. I am committing to $250K worth of Tesla product in 12 months and I 100% expect that the claims they made about range hold true. Else we will have a widespread problem with many unhappy owners (among many who are already unhappy with the seat problems, bad communication, delays). Using this thread as one data point, it doesn't seem like one single owner has reported that their P85D is more efficient than their P85, even on the exact same route.

This is partially my point. I'm not retired, have a young family and don't have the luxury of "taking the time to smell the roses" every time I need to take a trip. Maybe someday. So the 70 amp chargers are not really practical for me, unless I'm planning to stay somewhere overnight.

Two things made this car practical for me personally. First is an accessible supercharger and second is the range to reliably make it there 90% of the time (the rest of the time, I can take my wife's Audi). The the 285 mile range that had been claimed for the P85D, combined with the new supercharger would have met those criteria, and so the car becomes practical. If we've been delivered something less than what was advertised, then it puts that all in question... for me. For others it may be different of course.

I'm very concerned because, in not a single one of the reports that we've had does the P85D range even match taht of the P85 - never mind exceed it. Yes, we have a small sample, but it doesn't take long to see which way the data points.

All that said, I'm going to proceed with the car. If I have to resell to buy a S85D or, and ICE - then well, I've certainly made bigger mistakes in my life, and I'll have learned something.

I remain dumbfounded, though. I refuse to believe that Tesla has deliberately tried to deceive us. So what the heck has happened here?

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I've done Toronto - Sault Ste Marie (700km) several times in my P85. You have to use the Sun County Highway chargers ( like the one in Parry Sound) for now. Plan for a longer day. It takes me 12 hours with charging for what usually would be a 7 hour drive. It certainly is a much more pleasant drive than the time pressure you put on yourself in an ICE. Superchargers will come to the Trans Canada eventually. Having visited 65 different super chargers earlier this year I can definitely say they will be worth the wait for long distance traveling.

I get that... but as per my response above, at my current stage of like I don't usually have the luxury of taking that time. Very frequently, I need to get to Toronto and back during the same day. The Sun Country chargers don't permit that.

If you do have the luxury, then more power to you!

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Well there you go....lasso a moose (or a mosquito in Canada) to pull you the rest of the way home!!

Never considered that! I'd probably need a team of at least 16 mosquitos!

 

[BerTX]

I suspect many of the optimistic answers you are getting are from people who don't completely understand your issue. Maybe I don't either. I don't think we KNOW how much the temperatures you will experience will affect range. I don't think some of these folks understand that turning off the heat isn't an option. Slowing down in bad road conditions does not always help with range -- the factors that cause you to slow down are themselves decreasing your range, also.

I also suspect that running out of power is not just an "oops, how inconvenient and embarrassing", but a life-threatening situation.

Some vehicles , electric or not, are not practical for winter driving where you choose to live.

 

[efusco]

The heater uses a lot of electricity when the battery is cold-soaked, but once the battery warms-up, the heater will draw heat from the battery and use a lot less electricity to heat the cabin. Also, if its that much of a concern, why not wear your coat and maybe a ski cap while driving and turn the heat down a little.

It's funny (and understandable) how much range anxiety people have BEFORE they own this car. I have had sleepless nights worrying about it before my car came, wondering if I made a mistake buying it. Now that I've had the car for 6 months (10K miles), I haven't had one iota of range anxiety.

The other nice thing is that the range estimate on the dash is quite accurate and displaying the wH/mile grid is also comforting because you know what you're using and can tell that the estimate is accurate.

Well, I've got over 45,000 miles and over 2 years on my car and still get legitimate range anxiety from time to time. I'm in a fairly rural area with distances between major metropolitan areas to my home of 180-220 miles. While those are doable trips, if conditions change (cold, wind, rain or snow) they quickly become very anxiety provoking and force me to consider alternative means of transport or to be very very cautious. The commute the OP describes is right in that range and he's right, particularly in Canada, to be wary. I'd still recommend buying the car as I think 95% of the time he'll be fine. But he'll need to do some other planning when weather conditions dictate an abundance of caution.

 

[sandpiper]

I suspect many of the optimistic answers you are getting are from people who don't completely understand your issue. Maybe I don't either. I don't think we KNOW how much the temperatures you will experience will affect range. I don't think some of these folks understand that turning off the heat isn't an option. Slowing down in bad road conditions does not always help with range -- the factors that cause you to slow down are themselves decreasing your range, also.

I also suspect that running out of power is not just an "oops, how inconvenient and embarrassing", but a life-threatening situation.

Some vehicles , electric or not, are not practical for winter driving where you choose to live.

I'm actually not all that worried about running out. I've been a pilot for 25 years, and so I'm very accustomed to knowing my range limits and planning accordingly. And in a plane, running out is definitely life threatening!

It's more that (like with a plane) reduced range may mean reduced utility with respect to your specific mission (in pilot parlance). If the P85D has 15% less range than the P85, it removes a lot of utility for me specifically. I can't speak for others.

 

[gavine]

The website advertises the P85D at 250 miles. Click on "order" on the Model S page.

 

[sandpiper]

The website advertises the P85D at 250 miles. Click on "order" on the Model S page.

It does now. It didn't when Elon announced it and when many of us ordered. He proudly claimed 285 (or 275??? I forget) when was 10 miles more than the P85. And then he claimed 295 for the S85D. The EPA range definition muddied the water, and course none of us knew what to believe - and probably we mostly still don't. I know I'm still confused.

 

[dennis]

It does now. It didn't when Elon announced it and when many of us ordered. He proudly claimed 285 (or 275??? I forget) when was 10 miles more than the P85. And then he claimed 295 for the S85D. The EPA range definition muddied the water, and course none of us knew what to believe - and probably we mostly still don't. I know I'm still confused.

For the P85D it was 275, 285 for an 85, and 295 for the S85D. All of these were clearly stated to be at a constant 65mph.

I knew I wouldn't be getting improved range with the P85D because the 85 at 65 mph was touted to have 20 more miles of range that the EPA figure of 265. I am still baffled why Tesla felt compelled to discuss range improvements at the announcement when the performance and AWD stories were more than enough to carry the day.

 

[sandpiper]

For the P85D it was 275, 285 for an 85, and 295 for the S85D. All of these were clearly stated to be at a constant 65mph.

I knew I wouldn't be getting improved range with the P85D because the 85 at 65 mph was touted to have 20 more miles of range that the EPA figure of 265. I am still baffled why Tesla felt compelled to discuss range improvements at the announcement when the performance and AWD stories were more than enough to carry the day.

Right... and so the frustration is in not even doing as well as the P85. They went to great length to discuss how this was a rare case of a free lunch, explainable by the different gearings of the two motors. It sounded plausible,

 

[dsm363]

I'm actually not all that worried about running out. I've been a pilot for 25 years, and so I'm very accustomed to knowing my range limits and planning accordingly. And in a plane, running out is definitely life threatening!

It's more that (like with a plane) reduced range may mean reduced utility with respect to your specific mission (in pilot parlance). If the P85D has 15% less range than the P85, it removes a lot of utility for me specifically. I can't speak for others.

I think you are being overly concerned. It doesn't have 15% less range. I'd skip the 21" rims if range is a major concern. It is rated at a higher highway speed I believe. You should have no problem planning a trip and finding alternate charge spots given you are a pilot. Many people don't knew how to plan a trip or watch their 'fuel '. Tesla said specifically it had more range at 65mph so they didn't lie. They might not have had the EPA numbers yet. The EPA test cycle is not at 65mph constant speed so will be worse.

 

[ckessel]

For the P85D it was 275, 285 for an 85, and 295 for the S85D. All of these were clearly stated to be at a constant 65mph.

Elon also pretty clearly stated that, unlike in a gas car, adding AWD improved both performance and range.

Seems like that claim wasn't true. The design studio is no longer indicating better range for either the 85D or P85D.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Elon also pretty clearly stated that, unlike in a gas car, adding AWD improved both performance and range.

Seems like that claim wasn't true. The design studio is no longer indicating better range for either the 85D or P85D.

We really need a side-by-side to say that. EPA tests are not good range tests.

 

[randompersonx]

Tesla Canada's website currently lists all cars range at 105km/h as the only measurement.

60: 345 km
85: 460km
P85D: 460km
85D: 475km

So, as far as I am concerned, they are still advertising that the P85D has the same range, at least on the highway, as S85. I think it's also pretty clear that this isn't the case currently.

 

[3mp_kwh]

We really need a side-by-side to say that. EPA tests are not good range tests.

I'd work from the EPA numbers, before I'd work from Ford, Kia, or any other manufacturer's claims (which I know you aren't suggesting). When false EPA numbers get forwarded, we now know 100 million dollar fines can result. I'll say "275" was never a false EPA number. I agree it would be better to have two Teslas go out, but assuming an EV's highway range will decrease from its established EPA AER is true for most BEVs, and something that is proving also to be true, today, for the P85D.

 

[sandpiper]

We really need a side-by-side to say that. EPA tests are not good range tests.

Agree. Need a side by side highway run, both cars on cruise.

 

[vvanders]

Elon also pretty clearly stated that, unlike in a gas car, adding AWD improved both performance and range.

Seems like that claim wasn't true. The design studio is no longer indicating better range for either the 85D or P85D.

As someone who put in the an order for an 85D mostly on the increased 10% range benefit I'd really like to get resolution on this as well. I remember multiple quotes around better efficiency and now the Tesla builder shows no advantage for 85 vs 85D.

 

[breser]

As someone who put in the an order for an 85D mostly on the increased 10% range benefit I'd really like to get resolution on this as well. I remember multiple quotes around better efficiency and now the Tesla builder shows no advantage for 85 vs 85D.

I'd contact your Owner Advisor and ask the question. I did so back on the 12th, didn't get an answer so I sent another email. Got a poor answer yesterday and sent a longer email explaining the concerns in greater detail. Waiting on the answer there. If I get an answer I can post I will do so.

 

[justaddsun]

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Ill buy it from you for half price! :biggrin:

 

[3mp_kwh]

Has anyone w/P85+ gotten 275 miles, at 65mph?

"full idle on 2nd motor" implies the rear motor does all the pushing, at efficient speed, which shoots down any theory that the smaller front motor was designed to be less powerful, but more highly geared for efficient highway duty. It also makes perfect sense, if decoupling the front effectively leaves you with a P85+ rear.

"Full idle" doesn't sound like a complex improvement. It sounds like P85D buyers got a P85+, for the purpose of holding 65? Even the S85s have a larger rear motor, than their S85D counterpart (see configurator images). So, perhaps this is where it makes sense that the S85D's single, smaller, rear motor, at 65mph, will yield the predicted best efficiency. Am I reading into this right?

 

[sandpiper]

View attachment 66885

So what happened to more efficient?