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2015 Tesla Accelerated into a wall

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Jjmboni, May 22, 2019.

  1. TMeister

    TMeister Gearhead

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    A lot of details missing here.

    Did you get the crash data download? Can you prove you didn't have your foot on the accelerator? Did you remove your foot from whichever pedal it was on to then see that wheels were still turning? Once the car started accelerating, did you remove your foot and re-apply? Did you just let go? Or did you just push harder convinced your foot was on the brake?

    As many of the participants in the thread point out, you really can't remember what you exactly did. But you are convinced that the car was at fault. It's the only way to rationalize the error you made. Sorry I can't believe your story.
     
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  2. mvotb

    mvotb Member

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    First of all, that's not a brick wall, it's a just a stud wall, and no stronger than a stucco wall, you would find on any house. Second, If the car was going any where near 40 mph it would be through wall. So your wife's story does not reflect the evidence at all. I would say it hit the wall at closer to 10 mph or less.

    That being said, I don't understand how the car could stop with that little of impact, if she was stomping on the accelerator. The car should have gone through the wall until it met something with strength, equal to the force, or got high centered. So I'm also not so sure about this wrong pedal theory, unless it was just for a spit second, but even then it would have to travel some distance to bring the speed back down enough to match the impact damage. Did she try to put on the turn signal, to turn into a space, then travel straight because of the acceleration? How far did the car travel from very slow or stop the the point of impact?
     
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  3. Rich A.

    Rich A. Member

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    I'm so sorry for the loss of your nearly "new" Model S, and I'm very happy your wife was not injured. But I'm also not buying it. I'm gonna say she mistook the accelerator for the brake, and then "doubled down", pressing it even harder. I also don't buy it because the airbags would have gone off on a 40 mph crash into a wall, and because the damage to the building (and car) is FAR less than what would have been caused by an impact at that speed. Just not buying it. At all.

    I'll add that once -- and only once -- many decades ago, I mistook the accelerator for the brake pedal. In my mind I was so convinced I was stepping on the brake, that I stepped even harder, thinking my car must have suddenly become defective. I was absolutely, 100% sure of myself. Then, a few seconds later, I realized my mistake -- before anything dangerous happened -- and brought the car to a stop normally. If you think about it, it is statistically impossible for there NOT to have been at least a few occasions when someone mixed up the two pedals; in other words, this literally has to happen to someone, sometimes. It is unfortunate that it was you.

    I have to add one more thing. IT. ISN'T. POSSIBLE. FOR. THE. MOTOR. TO. BE. STRONGER. THAN. THE. BRAKES. This is a feature of literally every car ever built.
     
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  4. PhilDavid

    PhilDavid Active Member

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    This is partly why I keep creep turned on.

    in parking lots, as a RULE, I always first let the car coast on creep before gently feathering the brake or accelerator. This after I ONCE mistakenly pressed the wrong pedal myself. Just like the previous post, I caught it just in time though it thankfully caused no damage, it scared me enough to never want to be in that situation again.

    So now, creep is always on. In parking situations, I always feather the brake or the the accelerator because with creep on, I'm moving so slowly. Once the car slows or starts accelerating based on my feathering input is when I press that pedal harder. I've used his approach as a rule for a while now and it's just muscle memory. This gives me better control of the car in parking situations by default. Even god forborbid I hit something, I will do so at barely 5 mph as that's how slowly I move into a parking space or maneuver around a parking space.

    These cars are not a Toyota Yaris where you can use harsh inputs and still have the time to recover. Best approach is to commit to muscle memory gentle input when parking before going further no matter how good of a driver you think you are.

    AFAIC all these unintended acceleration reports are caused by driver error. Because they ALL happen in parking lots when someone is switching between the brake and the accelerator, mixes the two, and then doubles down on the wrong pedal.
     
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  5. NHK X

    NHK X Member

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    They always give the user ultimate control for now. Think about the extreme case of being on railroad tracks with a train coming and your only option is to accelerate into the car ahead of you to push your way out.
     
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  6. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    That isn’t how a Tesla works. As soon as your butt is off the seat, the car goes into park. So the seat weight sensor would have to be malfunctioning.
     
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  7. Feathermerchan

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  8. SO16

    SO16 Active Member

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    #68 SO16, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
    Because it IS the drivers fault. Every single solitary case, it has been confirmed with the manufacturer (even with other vehicles), that the driver was at fault. Sorry, but it’s the hard truth. You will see. I definitely encourage you to find out from the logs. Do you ever wonder why these things almost always happen when people are parking? Maybe because they are typically wanting to use the accelerator and brake at almost the same time.

    Part of the issue is that EVs (especially Teslas) are quick and silent compared to gas cars. So you have less chance to react properly.
     
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  9. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    #69 Az_Rael, May 25, 2019
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  10. SO16

    SO16 Active Member

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    You may want to read this.

    "Toyota's Killer Firmware" and the "Single Bit Flip That Killed"? Not!

    Floor mats is a different story.

    It's All Your Fault: The DOT Renders Its Verdict on Toyota's Unintended-Acceleration Scare – Feature – Car and Driver
     
    • Informative x 1
  11. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    I guess the problem with blaming the drivers in the floor mat cases is the NHTSA found that brake fade was a real issue when it comes to the high speed SUA events. Basically, the way a normal driver would react would bleed the vacuum system and cause the amount of braking force required to increase significantly, and in a critical situation, it might be more time than needed to stop.

    https://one.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/NHTSA-UA_report.pdf
    Post-incident inspections of brake components removed from vehicles involved in high-speed, long-duration incidents have revealed evidence of this type of thermal degradation of friction materials indicative of prolonged braking at speed (Figures 4 and 5). This type of damage has only been observed in incidents that originated at highway speeds and involved prolonged open-throttle braking.45 These types of events were first observed by NHTSA in 2006 in MY 2007 Lexus ES 350 vehicles46 and, to date, such brake system overheating in UA incidents has only been observed in events involving throttles stuck wide-open due to pedal entrapment.

    And:

    Accordingly, in analyzing UA complaints, NHTSA finds claims of brake ineffectiveness credible only in situations involving medium to high initiation speeds and repeated pumping of the brakes (which can deplete the vacuum assist) and high speed, long duration events with repeated attempts to use the brakes (where brake fade can occur, particularly in high powered vehicles with stuck throttles).

    So people do brake in these events, but they do it “wrong” and get themselves into trouble. I just don’t buy the narrative that 100% of SUA events are pedal misapplication. I think a good portion are, but not 100%.
     
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  12. zhur0002

    zhur0002 Member

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    I fixed that car 2 years and 60k miles ago. It had side damage on it. Why do so many of you bash salvage cars? It is just as safe as a car and drove just as good as non salvage car. I will try to pull logs of the car and hopefully will have an EDR video of it crashing into the wall. I'm sure it was user error.
     
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    • Informative x 2
  13. SO16

    SO16 Active Member

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    Well....maybe one day we will see irrefutable evidence of that situation.
     
  14. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    You don’t think the Saylor case was irrefutable evidence? He had pedal entrapment and braked, but due to brake fade, he couldn’t stop the car in time.

    And he was a cop, so presumably a trained driver.
     
  15. TKGA

    TKGA Member

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    I experienced an unexpected acceleration in a test drive today. Here is what happened:

    1. I had just used autopilot (auto steer) before in the highway.
    2. I took off autopilot at the exit and slowed down for the stoplight.
    3. As soon as the light turned green I lightly stepped on the gas. It started to move slowly.
    4. It then unexpectedly accelerated into the turn without me changing foot pressure.

    At first I was concerned. Now here is what we believe happened:

    1. I turned autopilot / auto steer off by steering.
    2. But traffic aware adaptive cruise control (TACC) was still on as evidenced by the speed limit sign encircled in blue.
    3. Because TACC was still on, I assumed I was braking the car at the light but it was TACC.
    4. Light turned green, I started to go through, and TACC started to automatically accelerate me to the previous cruise control speed limit.

    I’m new to TACC and especially an adaptive cruise control that brakes to 0mph without me touching the pedal. So I was not expecting the car to accelerate on its own.

    Now that I know what to look for (blue circle) and also that TACC exists - I think I’ll know how to handle this situation with confidence in the future. This was a case of the feature being new to me.
     
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  16. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    Did you have to do any repairs that involved the seat sensor? Based on the OPs post, it sounds like the car continued to move forward after getting out of the driver seat. That shouldnt happen if the seat sensor was operating correctly.
     
  17. mswlogo

    mswlogo Active Member

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    I was thinking about one thing you said that your wife said. She said she had BOTH feet on the brake and was practically standing on it. Well you can’t have both feet on the accelerator! No way.

    Since the car had 60k miles since it was salvaged I doubt that had anything to do with what happened.
     
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  18. David.85D

    David.85D Member

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    I did my experiment again to see what would happen regarding the seatbelt and seat sensor and the accelerator.

    Don’t try this at home...

    On a slight hill that allowed me to give some accelerator input but still move slowly, I did two experiments

    1) with no pedal input, car in drive, no seatbelt, lifted my bottom off the seat. Car immediately goes into park

    2). With accelerator pedal input, no seatbelt, lifted my bottom off the seat. Car remains in drive.

    I was not expecting this, but guess the story could be consistent with a foot or floor mat pressing on the accelerator when the driver exited the car.
     
    • Informative x 2
  19. Saxgod

    Saxgod Thread Necromancer

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    There is no way I would ever want a car to throw itself into park just because it doesn’t detect my butt. Think about it.
     
  20. quickstrike12

    quickstrike12 Member

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    It’s not a conventional transmission tho. It’s simply floating rotor magnets in the motor. Without brakes there technically is no park in the traditional sense. Park is just a set of smaller calipers and rotors
    Shouldn’t hurt a thing.
     
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