2016 Model S 90D - Property Damage Claim Post Mortem

[SageBrush]

OP: how much was the appraised value compared to a comparable new car ?
How many miles on the car ?

I'm curious about depreciation.

 

[dvhart]

OP: how much was the appraised value compared to a comparable new car ?
How many miles on the car ?

I'm curious about depreciation.

My 2016 Facelift Tesla Model S 90D had AP1, Gray Leather, Matte Obeche, and a Panoramic Roof. It was $99,950 new including the refferal discount. It had 5,800 miles on the odometer when we were in the accident. The appraised value was 94,320 by my appraiser and I think 93,200 by Geico. Considering I got $7,500 back for the federal rebate, it was basically a wash - even a bit in my favor. I was fortunate enough to purchase the replacement before Tesla dropped the 90D (took delivery the same day they discontinued it!). I wanted a faster delivery, so I got a new inventory car with a couple additional options I didn't care about (Audio and SubZero) and without the Panoramic roof since the all glass roof does 90% of what I cared about better than the Pano anyway. It also came with AP2 and, unfortunately, the new interior options. The new car was $104,150. Had I waited for delivery I could have saved some, but if I configured the Pano, it would have been something like $1,000.

 

[Brando]

What about, after a wreck, going to Tesla for a trade-in deal?
Trade in the wrecked car - no repairs - and let Tesla work with insurance and repair companies.
Is this even a possibility? [if it sounds crazy, I guess it actually is]

Was Henry David Thoreau was right?
We don't own things, they own us.

 

[dvhart]

What about, after a wreck, going to Tesla for a trade-in deal?

I called Tesla to try and get information about diminished value. They wouldn't even give me a rough number for the expected delta. Sources suggest anything with structural damage cannot qualify for cpo.

 

[Brando]

I called Tesla to try and get information about diminished value. They wouldn't even give me a rough number for the expected delta. Sources suggest anything with structural damage cannot qualify for cpo.

Thanks
Won't it be nice if accidents become a thing of the past?

How about this claim? Liberty Mutual "better car replacement" ?
Better Car Replacement Insurance | Liberty Mutual

 

[Ulmo]

@dvhart, great writeup.

I went through a similar although abbreviated process as yours, @dvhart, for another car (not a Tesla; a rare old turbo-charged stick-shift 1982 245 Volvo back in 2005, of all things). There are a few things I want to echo and ditto of what you said that I found to be true:

• The opposing party (their insurer in your case, my insurer in my case, could be anybody depending upon circumstances) will absolutely fight you. You must expect it. You must fight back to win ground. Since we have truth on our side, that does mean they will lie to you, and ignore law when it befits their lies. As you pointed out, being armed to the teeth helps. Having angles at every approach seems necessary. This gets to the next point:
  
• Appraisals, process flow, decision points, good knowledge are key. Having an insurance agent be your guide is one great way to do that; I forget if I had that exactly, but the general idea of going into this knowing all the angles to approach is something I totally agree with: it helped in my case. I intentionally sought out an advisor; I think I hired one (experienced topic specific) advisor and one appraiser. This made all the difference to me. The rest was just procedure (albeit, as you mentioned, laced with emotion and jousting).
• Dedication, persistence, and knowing that your side of the process properly executed with the above principles will win, does win. Unfortunately, they do get their blood: $6,000 for you. In my case, it was more like $3,500. They cheat us by that much. But, in both our cases, they wanted to cheat us by many more times than that originally. If we're not independently wealthy beyond anybody's needs, then it's basically worth it for us to fight the good fight and get a proper closer-to-reality settlement, as you and I both did. I found it worth the effort by many orders of magnitude. For Teslas, I think it's basically a given that this is the right approach. As your example shows, it was definitely worth it for anybody but, as I said, those who are the most rich.

Thankfully, when I owned my Tesla, I never had to deal with this at all.

 

[jaguar36]

Awesome post dvhart! Did you have the third row seats? How well did the trunk area do?

Also I'm a bit confused by your valuations here:

To be declared a total loss, the cost of the repairs must be more than the pre-loss appraisal of the vehicle minus the salvage value. In my case: $94k - $35k = $59k. ...

...Far fewer private buyers would consider the vehicle, and if I were able to sell it, the average diminished value for a Model S with structural damage is $21k.

It looks like you're saying the salvage value of the Tesla would be $35k, but the value of the repaired car would only be $21k.

 

[Trunk Gap]

GEICO also was a total pain for me in an accident last year. Similarly, other driver insured by G (w minimal coverage) was 100% at fault.

After 4 months of no car (making payments) and 3k+ in rental car costs...they finally totaled it, AFTER the body shop made out w 50k of the insurance companies money, only to total after the "motor blew on the final test drive" - idiots never put oil back in the car, despite saying they did.

All in all after tons of phone calls and arguing, I was probably out $1k total. For someone else's fault. It was such a ****ing headache, and without it being large enough of a situation to hire a lawyer, I just gave up.

Really opened my eyes to how sad the whole system is, cut all corners at the expense of the person w the most means, hope they don't notice, and move on, instead of emphasizing support, empathy, removing burdens (they even asked me to call and get quotes to tow the car.....asking the customer!!! "Since we are an insurance company they will fleece us, it will be cheaper if you call").

These are major major major insurance companies, and the experience couldn't have been much worse. Agent was useless too.

Bottom line - great thread, if anyone hasn't been in a situation like this, get ready, it's a total pain in the ass, learn from all this and try to cut to the chase to get the outcome you want. Don't trust these scumbags for a second, make your expectations loud and clear and hold them accountable, or you will be taken for a ride by the very ppl you cut checks to to provide you with service, because they get taken for a ride due to the shadiness of this industry (repair shops, dealers, etc) and someone else needs to absorb the blow w them. Terrible.

 

[zambono]

Heh, no problem. The point was to share the experience in the hope it would help others.

thanks for the info, I'm in the diminished value route after having the vehicle repaired.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

View attachment 231582

After nearly two months, we finally settled our property damage claim after being rear ended in our 2016 Tesla Model S 90D. Insurance claims are something many of us dread about owning a Tesla, a risk we acknowledged going in. I thought I'd share the experience and the outcome in the hope it will help someone else. As I shared earlier, we were rear ended at over 30 mph while stopped and shoved into the car in front of us. To the surprise of the police and fire fighters, all four of us, including my two young children, walked away without so much as a seatbelt bruise (although my wife is working through some physical therapy for a knee strain). Thank you Tesla for building such a safe vehicle, or, as I have taken to calling it, the world's heaviest and most expensive accordion. This post is about the property damage aspect of the claim, with the goal of totaling the vehicle and recovering the full pre-loss appraisal value and avoiding a drawn out repair period (the post, unfortunately, is rather long and drawn out).

My most valuable resource throughout this experience was my independent insurance agent. He spent hours on the phone and email educating me on the process, helped me set realistic expectations and define decision points along the way. If you don't have one, I highly recommend finding one. I'm happy to recommend one for those local to Portland, Oregon. Besides my agent, the Tesla certified body shop estimator and an independent appraiser and diminished value expert were also invaluable. I let the body shop know from the beginning that I intended to total the vehicle. I paid the appraiser to develop evidence for appraisal, diminished value (DV), and loss of use (LOU). Sadly, Tesla was completely useless - to the point of being counterproductive.

The other party was found to be 100% at fault. I had the option of filing through our insurance (1st Party) or through the theirs (3rd Party). While my insurance company is at least somewhat motivated to keep me happy, there are contractual limitations to filing 1st party. These come into play specifically on LOU and DV claims. For example, in my case, LOU was limited to $30/day for 30 days, $900 max, and DV was explicitly excluded. There is no such contract with the 3rd party. I would be exercising my legal right to recover losses resulting from damages occurring outside of contract (otherwise known as a "tort"), and the 3rd party carrier is acting on behalf of the at fault party. Unfortunately, the 3rd party carrier was GEICO, who is notorious for refusing to pay for quality repairs and routinely sells cut-rate, low limit policies.

Because of the high value of a Tesla, the traditional equations governing the decision to declare the vehicle a total loss do not work in my favor. For example, the body shop provided an estimate for $44k to repair the vehicle, including significant structural work. This did not cover issues I observed with the panoramic roof or the more pronounced inconsistent panel gaps between the hood and fenders, or any additional and unseen kinetic damage or supplemental damages I might discover later. To be declared a total loss, the cost of the repairs must be more than the pre-loss appraisal of the vehicle minus the salvage value. In my case: $94k - $35k = $59k. If I were to file 1st party, they would require the vehicle be repaired. In fact, they wouldn't total the vehicle until repairs exceeded $59k. The car would obviously never be the same, and I was unwilling to drive a car that had suffered such extensive damage. Especially one I paid $100k for which had less than 6k miles on the odometer.

I could repair the vehicle and sell it. Because Tesla will not consider a vehicle with structural damage for their CPO program, the trade value in would be significantly lower. Far fewer private buyers would consider the vehicle, and if I were able to sell it, the average diminished value for a Model S with structural damage is $21k. The timeframe for repair is about six months, including the time to get the estimate, order parts, and complete the repair. For those six months, the LOU damages accrue daily. In the Portland area, the average daily rental for a Model S is $239/day. For six months, that comes to $43k.

To total the vehicle, I needed to convince the 3rd party carrier that it would be less expensive for them than forcing me to repair it. By adding the DV and LOU to the repair estimate, $44k + $21k + $43k = $108k to repair, versus $94k - $35k = $59k to total (appraised value minus salvage value). This gave me a $108k - $59k = $50k advantage in my favor to convince them to total.

It took four weeks to get all these numbers together. Once I had them, I contacted the 3rd party carrier and presented the case. They took days to return calls. They refused to provide email addresses. They argued every point they could. They tried shorting the estimate by $15k, they argued reduced LOU, and pushed back on DV. The critical factor was having educated myself and calling them on every lie they told me. Every. Single. Time. Interrupt them, mid sentence, and explain to them why what they're telling me is a lie. They have to use qualified labor. There are no used or aftermarket parts available. The LOU solution has to be available (a $50 offer in New York doesn't count in Portland, the price of the lease doesn't count because you can't lease it for 6 months, etc.). They insisted the vehicle had to be repaired, not totaled. I made it explicitly clear that I would not drive the vehicle again, and if they forced me to repair it, I would hand over all aspects of the claims to the attorneys, and the attorneys wouldn't stop at seeking a total loss, and I would have to let them maximize damages in order to cover their fees.

They tried to say they were approaching policy limits and I would be better served filing 1st party. Unfortunately for them, I happened to know they had paid out the claim of the vehicle in front of us in full. Having done so, they put themselves at risk of operating in bad faith as they could have attempted to settle all claims within limits of the policy, but did not, thereby exposing their client to excess damages. If this went to court and they lost, they would waive their right to the limits and be responsible for all damages ($108k+). To decide how to proceed, I needed to know the limits of the policy. They are not obligated to disclose this except through discovery during a lawsuit. As I didn't want to have to involve an attorney, I convinced the carrier to reveal the limits through threat of legal action and higher damages. Knowing the limits, I demonstrated that when accounting for salvage, the total loss route enabled them to settle within limits, and would not expose their client to excess damages. I emphasized this point strongly and repeatedly - no carrier wants to be found to have operated in bad faith.

It was brutal and I hated every second of it. It was a stressful two weeks. My hands shook. I was short tempered. I couldn't eat or sleep. I was less productive at work. I started researching the adrenaline response to learn how to minimize the symptoms. I hated the lies and the disingenuous nature of the carrier's representatives, and I hated how I had to respond to protect my interests. I struggled daily with what I would do if the driver's policy limits couldn't cover the damages - would I be willing to sue them personally? It was awful.

In the end, the insurer countered my proposed settlement options, which had $10k of negotiation room included, with a full value total loss of $94k, minimal LOU of $3k, and up to $2k in shop fees (partial tear down estimates and storage for six weeks are expensive), for a total property damage settlement of $99k, leaving me with a nearly $6k shop bill, for a net settlement of $93k. They verbally communicated the settlement to me on the same day I picked up my new inventory 2017 Tesla Model S 90D, and we picked up the final check today (about a week later).

I have seen a number of collisions posted in this forum and several comments about suing for DV or LOU, but I have seen very few accounts of the final result of such negotiations. I hope this account will be useful to others finding themselves in this situation.

It's now time for me to lawyer up. As a fellow Portland area resident, we probably used the same body shop and appraiser. What lawyer did you use?

 

[hmmm]

@dvhart

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I have bookmarked this thread, am taking screenshots on a regular basis and storing paper copies in a safe. Just in case.

Enjoy your new car!

 

[JMG]

Excellent thread and great writeup DVhart.

As an independent insurance agent myself, thank you for the kudos to the profession. I'm glad one of my fellow IA's has proven to be valuable. I've done the same for many clients in the same scenario, however never in a Tesla. My own brand new 85D was backed into when it was less than a week old (with 150 miles on it) and had to negotiate my own claim and settlement, including DV with the other party. Even for an agent, it was no cakewalk and I needed the assistance of a DV evaluation expert and independent appraiser.

You and your agent did the right thing and went straight 3rd party, and the reasons you listed were spot on. I've argued with many on here who insist on just filing everything on their policy and letting their insurance company handle it. That has numerous drawbacks, which you detailed, not to mention a claim on your record (even as not-at fault) that could complicate issues if/when you are ever moved from your current insurer to another.

Way to stay level headed and fight for what you deserved. Well done.

 

[dhcp]

This story gave me anxiety just reading it, dealing with people who spend their life trying to argue against every claim, no matter how reasonable and standard would keep me up at night too. Thanks for sharing this journey, I'm sure it aged you a few years!

 

[DoNotBurnCarbon]

@dvhart,

Clear and complete. Thank you very much!

 

[jelloslug]

I just helped my sister out with her claim on a recent accident where the other party was 100% at fault. I had prepared here with answers to common "shady" statements, what to demand in the settlement, and the proper procedure for the way thing should happen. Her car was not worth much so the damage easily totaled the car but the car itself is perfectly serviceable and with some bolt on salvage parts would be perfectly safe to continue driving. With this in mind she wanted to keep the car and deduct the salvage value from the payout. She had the car in her possession but the adjuster kept insisting that they needed to tow the car to inspect it. When she asked where they were going to do the inspection, they told her they were going to tow it to Copart for the inspection. I had already told her that Copart was an auto auction house that specialized in insurance salvage auctions. They obviously had no intention to meet her requirements and planned on just auctioning it off, sight unseen. Needless to say, she turned down the "offer" to have it towed and in the end got the proper value and kept the car.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Excellent thread and great writeup DVhart.

As an independent insurance agent myself, thank you for the kudos to the profession. I'm glad one of my fellow IA's has proven to be valuable. I've done the same for many clients in the same scenario, however never in a Tesla. My own brand new 85D was backed into when it was less than a week old (with 150 miles on it) and had to negotiate my own claim and settlement, including DV with the other party. Even for an agent, it was no cakewalk and I needed the assistance of a DV evaluation expert and independent appraiser.

You and your agent did the right thing and went straight 3rd party, and the reasons you listed were spot on. I've argued with many on here who insist on just filing everything on their policy and letting their insurance company handle it. That has numerous drawbacks, which you detailed, not to mention a claim on your record (even as not-at fault) that could complicate issues if/when you are ever moved from your current insurer to another.

Way to stay level headed and fight for what you deserved. Well done.

I'm dealing with an accident where I got rear ended. The body shop is saying the 3rd party insurance most likely won't pay for the entire cost of replacing the bumper, and that I will have to pay for whatever they don't collect. Their estimate was $1,600. Is there anyway to get the insurance company to pay the $1600 before the work is done, but leave the claim open in case there is structural damage found underneath? Do you also recommend keeping my personal auto insurance out of this? I don't want to give them any excuses to raise my rates.

 

[xrayangiodoc]

Certainly helps to explain why the insurance companies raise our premiums!

 

[Insureit1]

Another independent agent here and this thread details why GEICO is perhaps the worst company to ever deal with as a claimant (the third party). They will fight and argue every step of the way. Not just with a Tesla but even with a Honda Civic. We have to intervene constantly with our clients. And they will delay paying subrogation for MONTHS in many cases. There are options you can purchase as 1st party coverage that can help in total losses, especially with new vehicles. Loan gap is one but even better are "new car replacement or better car replacement" options. Theses endorsements are extra. but in the OP case he would not have to fight GEICO at all if his company had totaled the vehicle from the outset and he had new car replacement option. I agree with the other agent that way too many people will file claims on their own policy when not at fault and there can be negative consequences to doing so. However, when dealing with GEICO there are times I will advise clients to file the 1st party claim to avoid having to deal with all the BS from GEICO.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Another independent agent here and this thread details why GEICO is perhaps the worst company to ever deal with as a claimant (the third party). They will fight and argue every step of the way.

I have my Model S insured with GEICO. They've been pleasant to deal with and the price of the policy is quite good, but I've never had to put in a claim. Should I be looking for a different company?

Actually, I did put in a claim once, for a cracked windshield that wasn't patchable. But then I decided I didn't care about the crack and would just wait for another one to appear or that one to grow. It's been stable for a year and a half now, so I never followed up on my initial report. But they were quite straightforward with that -- told me it would cost me my $500 deductible and it could be taken care of quite simply. And when I told them I didn't want to go ahead with the claim, they told me any time I changed my mind would be fine. So no complaints here.

 

[MartinPF]

I called Tesla to try and get information about diminished value. They wouldn't even give me a rough number for the expected delta. Sources suggest anything with structural damage cannot qualify for cpo.

Thanks a lot for your informative write up.I wish I hadn't just acquired a reason to find it interesting:

Happened today, I also got rear ended - though not at quite the speed you seem to have been hit; the other car was thrown off the road down an embankment and across a ditch; had to call emergency services for the other driver, he had a bleeding head wound and chest pain after his airbag deployed.
I walked away without any hurt whatsoever.
As for my Tesla: The rear bumper came off completely, the trunk was pushed in about 1 foot. Stil, it left the site of the crash under its own power even if it's no longer street-legal.
The experience is not immediately comparable since my accident was in Europe. Also, I had stopped far enough from the car in front of me that I didn't get any damage in the front from being pushed forward.
I guess this means totaling the car won't be an option. The time frame of about 6 months for repairs is what's most frightening for me at the moment.
wish me luck in getting this resolved