2017.28

[chillaban]

No, AP1 was not the holy grail. But at least it knew which cars were around it. I used it extensively over the course of several test drives, and never felt uncomfortable relegating control of the car. With AP2 I still am reluctant to remove my hands from steering and feet from hovering over the pedals.

This is a step in the right direction, but no where near parity with AP1, at least from my recollection. It's getting closer though.

Lane change when it works is very smooth, like a human driver. I've had several instances where I signaled for lane change but the car refused to move. In my mind there was plenty of room. Eventually after waiting for a few seconds feeling like an idiot with my blinker on, I yank the steering wheel over thereby cancelling autosteer. I haven't figured out exactly why it won't move over sometimes.

I dunno, AP1 drew a lot more cars around, but it didn't seem to have any more common sense with that information. Like it happily drifted towards the side of a curve with a car when it knew the other lane had nothing in the front corner. I would love for AP2's display to come up to parity, but while it was a cool thing to watch on AP1, I honestly did not think it led to better driving.


FWIW, AP1 definitely had a very confident feel to it. I used it for 17,000 miles starting from late v7.1, and had maybe 2 or 3 near-death-experiences (tm) with it. It drives smoothly and doesn't scare you, even when it's barreling straight for a stopped offset car or towards a ROAD CLOSED sign because it followed the wrong fork in a construction zone.


But anyway, back on the topic of AP2: I agree these last two updates were great steps in the right direction. As someone who got fed up with AP1's limitations that only come to light after months of use, I actually think this update is a very compelling one at least on the highway for showing ways AP2 has exceeded AP1.

But the behavior locally is still lackluster compared to AP1, and I agree that AP2 can feel a little non-confident at time due to rapid small adjustments. Fundamentally though, on my last road trip with 17.26.76, I found the takeover rate on a 300mi highway trip is basically competitive with AP1. Just different scenarios, but roughly the same number. With either one, you really have to keep an eye out for stupid mistakes, regardless of how smoothly it feels.

 

[mookhead]

After about 40 miles of commute driving: much, much better than 17.26 and 17.17. Stop and go is better, the steering wheel is much more stable during straight and slightly curved driving. Impressively, it even handled the 87-to-101 overpass at full speed (harrowingly, but successfully). I was never able to do that with AP1.

Problems: it hit the brakes a few times when approaching shadows across my lane - very brief brake taps, but sharp. It also very briefly darted toward an exit ramp (again, very brief but sharp). I didn't feel unsafe though, and I'm not sure if the brakelights came on.

edit: now that I think about it, the 'braking for shadows' is strong evidence that it is now using the front-facing cameras for object detection, rather than just lane marking detection. Strong, but not conclusive.

 

[dknisely]

Why are you guys with AP2 trying to do this? Autopilot/TACC (AP1 and AP2) does not see stopped cars that stopped while out of radar range. They never have. Do not attempt to approach a stopped car on Autopilot/TACC. You will rear-end him.

Actually, for the last few releases, AP2 is seeing previously-untracked stopped cars pretty reliably. That is just about the ONLY improvement that I've seen. In most regards (except lane changing, which has improved), it has been a regression since March, in my experience. That also goes for auto-park, which has gotten worse since it was first introduced for AP2.

 

[clostridium]

Got the update as well.
Most things work better then the previous software versions. Lane change is great also much more stable between the lines.
Fast sharper cornes still not so good.

Only today i noticed it did not work at all with a extra line in the road. As the photo shows. (Not sure if it always been this way). Autopilot started to follow the black line then white lines etc. Then it could not get a fix om the road on and off. Not sure why it cannot see the the difference between the black and white lines?

I've noticed the same thing - previously the car handled lines like that fine but it seems to struggle more with this most recent update.

I'm not a fan of the new lane change. It is far more likely to not actually do the change than 17.26.76. It will sit and not change despite traffic plenty far away. When it does change it's too slow again. If only they could make the speed of the lane change halfway between what it is now and what it was with 17.26.76

 

[dknisely]

Right, it's good advice to not rely on TACC stopping for stopped cars, but it's a behavior that has worked for a large variety of situations despite not being foolproof. It's still very valid to discuss how that behavior changes between builds.


To stop for a stopped car, basically 2 or 3 things have to happen:

(1) The camera recognizes that there is a stopped car
(2) The camera estimates a distance to the stopped car, and TACC brakes based off that estimate, AND/OR
(3) Based off the camera estimated distance, TACC finds a radar stationary object at around the same distance, and TACC can correlate that the object seen by the camera is the same as this object seen by radar.


Of course, a lot can go wrong with any of these 3 steps.

I think the latest few releases show a progression away from relying on radar heavily (e.g., the disappearance of multiple cars ahead) and a greater reliance on vision (e.g., pretty reliable detection of previously untracked stopped cars). This is a promising step in the right direction (vision), so I'm hopeful that the jittering (poor localization) and over-correction/violent lurching are signs of a real vision-based AP/FSD approach ahead.

But for now, we are further from AP1 parity, IMHO. I have zero confidence/comfort in .28, and use it the least of any AP2 release (and always nervously).

 

[J1mbo]

I found with 17.26.76 that you could force a lane change when the system was hesitating by pushing the gas after indicating. Can you still do that in 2017.28?

 

[daktari]

Does this update still have the annoying ping-ponging within the lane markers at freeway speed? It's subtle but super annoying for me.

Got another 400 km today mostly highways. Yes, subtle ping-pong but only when cameras struggling with lane markers. E.g. Right lane marker disappeared because of on-ramp, merging of lanes, highway splits. Also in dark and or rain, cameras don't see lanes well enough. Feels ping-pong a bit as a passenger also.

When visibility is good it is very stable. It does problem solving on highways (those above) great.

Lane change is still quick and starts immediatly if next lane is clear, but if passing a vehicle it grant itself a whole 3-4 seconds before starting lane change (starting to indicate when passing). That is too long and causes a bit fuzz on european autobahns where high speed cars close fast from the rear.

I have also noticed 2 times that car identifies stopped vehicle and reduce speed to stop, a bit jerky compared to baking after a tracked car.

Still no signs of a blue car when lane markers disappeares, ie using tracked car to keep calm and carry on. This causes swerving. Applies to local roads.

 

[PluggedINLife]

I got the update yesterday and would agree that the lane change is much better. Did a quick video on it as well.

 

[Electroman]

Why are you guys with AP2 trying to do this? Autopilot/TACC (AP1 and AP2) does not see stopped cars that stopped while out of radar range. They never have. Do not attempt to approach a stopped car on Autopilot/TACC. You will rear-end him.

My AP1 car to the best of my knowledge always stopped for stopped cars at high speeds and low speeds. I remember this was an issue very early 2016 when I picked it mine, but subsequent updates took care of it.

But I am always cautious looking for the speed to drop. Even if it drops one mile I know that it has acquired the stopped car and I will relax.

 

[chillaban]

My AP1 car to the best of my knowledge always stopped for stopped cars at high speeds and low speeds. I remember this was an issue very early 2016 when I picked it mine, but subsequent updates took care of it.

It’s better but not foolproof either. Heck, I actually thought 17.17.x did way better, it was recognizing even sideways / diagonal / head-on cars. But yeah, something happened in 17.28 that made it more intermittent, particularly around curves.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

My AP1 car to the best of my knowledge always stopped for stopped cars at high speeds and low speeds. I remember this was an issue very early 2016 when I picked it mine, but subsequent updates took care of it.

I'm done on this topic. Clearly, I didn't explain it right and those who think they've seen behavior counter to what I've said will never be convinced.

It's fine. It's your car, risk whatever you want.

 

[TaoJones]

My AP1 car in late Jan/early Feb 2015 when TACC came out wouldn't recognize motorcycles at red lights and would happily plow right through the back of them if I didn't intervene.

By early 2017, that same AP1 car not only recognized motorcycles (as small motorcycle icons in the IC) but *stopped* for them as the car approached a red light with a motorcycle in front of me.

Now, did the car always stop for stopped traffic at red lights? Certainly not - couldn't trust it as a rule, but over time, it did improve markedly - which is why I've said TACC is and remains the best feature of the car - followed by Autosteer in AP1 cars, which while still not ready for prime time in early 2017 had also improved markedly since that feature's debut on October 15, 2015.

Today, AP2 is just a continuing disappointment relative to AP1, with this latest release being the best yet for AP2. Still recommend a CPO AP1 car to new buyers, but at least for highway driving, AP2 isn't completely awful anymore. Have only got about 40 miles with the latest update, but smoother it was in stop and go traffic on SoCal freeways. That compared to last week is a great improvement.

However, the change to TomTom is still bad - a speed limit of 40mph on a major SoCal freeway? Really? In other words, no recognition of speed limit signs, and no reaction thereto obviously as a result. Same with 2nd car in front - which is odd since I thought that was a function of radar with AP1.

 

[dragoljub]

Our AP2 S90D From Early 2017 got the update yesterday. We still have an AP1 S85 so I compare them frequently.

Here are my observations of 2017.28 on AP2 2017 S90D:
1. Lane change is much improved and smoother from previous firmware.
2. AP Cornering seems better and more smooth. At slow speeds it was able to navigate well marked twisty curves better than before.
3. Starting and slowing with TACC and Auto Steer seems much smoother than last firmware.

The cons:
For the first time ever in this car on 2017.28 the AP2 with TACC and Auto steer enabled the car would not at all slow or stop for a stopped minivan! The minivan was stopped at a red light and was clearly detected with an icon, AP2 did a few tentative slows, then continued to accelerate directly into the rear of the minivan. I had to slam the breaks in the last minute to stop from rear ending the minivan.

Very disappointed to learn that I can't trust the car to slow for a stopped car.

 

[Snowstorm]

Does this release fix the Canadian speed limit display issue? My car says speed limit is 161kmph when it should be 100kmph.

 

[cruiserlarry]

I really want to be able to write something positive...but it is getting harder and harder.

With each update, the hype gets bigger, and the results almost the same. This time, however, it seems to have regressed significantly. Very difficult to be excited when you are hoping it will actually work, as opposed to just work better...

Install 2017.28 yesterday night, and AP2 was almost undriveable today. I use the same route every weekday for 30+ years, and the side-to-side wandering in the lane was almost as if the vehicle was out of control - honestly, the most unsafe I've felt so far. 17.26.92 was much smoother to me. Still having major issues when driving the carpool lane and it's retaining wall - Tesla just won't stay centered, and tries to go into the wall until it disconnects. It seems to follow lines in the asphalt, even when it clearly shows lane lines in the display. Still disconnects or over corrects when the Tesla hits a large bump or uneven section of the road where the vehicle has to "sway" slightly. And a new symptom - I get the red "Take Control of the steering wheel" warning up on the dash sometimes after the AP has disconnected....

Elon, please.....Drive the car before you release the software, and before you tweet about how "silky smooth" it is supposed to be.

 

[alcibiades]

Have you only seen this in slow moving traffic? I noticed similar behavior yesterday while stuck in stop-and-go traffic(this was my first time with this update being in traffic).

I haven't seen this at all at normal speeds. Maybe something about their lateral control algorithm makes it not work great when moving very slowly...

Pretty much only in slow moving traffic, yeah. It used to be much better. It's weird -- to me -- how they continually tinker with the parts that seem ok.

 

[rpm001]

Does this release fix the Canadian speed limit display issue? My car says speed limit is 161kmph when it should be 100kmph.

No

 

[BAven8068]

Yesterday's lane hugging results were similar to the prior day's.

My favorite was this:

View attachment 236841

Oh, hi truck!

I can see your in Chicago, I drive that same stretch of road during stop and go traffic in an X with AP2 and have never encountered it hugging the lanes like that, it's always dead center. This includes the most recent update as well as previous updates.

I think you might have a sensor issue and it probably wouldn't hurt to have the service center look into it.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

I really want to be able to write something positive...but it is getting harder and harder.

With each update, the hype gets bigger, and the results almost the same. This time, however, it seems to have regressed significantly. Very difficult to be excited when you are hoping it will actually work, as opposed to just work better...

Install 2017.28 yesterday night, and AP2 was almost undriveable today. I use the same route every weekday for 30+ years, and the side-to-side wandering in the lane was almost as if the vehicle was out of control - honestly, the most unsafe I've felt so far. 17.26.92 was much smoother to me. Still having major issues when driving the carpool lane and it's retaining wall - Tesla just won't stay centered, and tries to go into the wall until it disconnects. It seems to follow lines in the asphalt, even when it clearly shows lane lines in the display. Still disconnects or over corrects when the Tesla hits a large bump or uneven section of the road where the vehicle has to "sway" slightly. And a new symptom - I get the red "Take Control of the steering wheel" warning up on the dash sometimes after the AP has disconnected....

Elon, please.....Drive the car before you release the software, and before you tweet about how "silky smooth" it is supposed to be.

If your post is accurate, I'd suggest having your car checked out. Reading through here, the vast vast majority don't have any of these issues.

With this release you should expect continued difficulty on local roads, not stopping for vehicles stopped far ahead and possibly some lack of centering in stop and go traffic. Anything else, I think, would suggest issues with your particular car.

 

[chillaban]

If your post is accurate, I'd suggest having your car checked out. Reading through here, the vast vast majority don't have any of these issues.

With this release you should expect continued difficulty on local roads, not stopping for vehicles stopped far ahead and possibly some lack of centering in stop and go traffic. Anything else, I think, would suggest issues with your particular car.

I agree! Heck, I tried pulling my car in front of some stopped vehicles at traffic lights for fun, and TACC got all of them correctly except for one that was around a curve, where it recognized much too late.

But surprisingly, for me, centering in stop and go was fine, though it did turn the wheel more than I thought was necessary. It does seem to me as well that some peoples' experiences are so much worse than others that it suggests there may be a problem with their cars.