Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
The height of the steps increased from 500 to 1000 and now to 2000 in y-axis. And in x-axis, the length shortened from 6-7 weeks bwteen 500-1000 to 4 weeks between 1000 to 2000. I don't know how long the current step at 2000 will last. If the exponential were to hold, I think the next step should occur significantly quicker than 4 weeks, maybe 2-3 weeks, and the height should double again to close to 4000. That would mean that the current range of registered VINs up to 3926 should be exhausted very soon, and we should see Tesla register more VINs in the next 1-2 weeks. I even think it's a little weird that Tesla hasn't registered more VINs already.

I also have a WAG that Fremont factory floor space allows Tesla to stage parts and build ~1000 cars in a batch. If the next step increase in y-axis is significantly larger than 1000, I have no idea how Tesla would batch the parts and assign VINs to WIP cars/parts.

So both in terms of VIN registration and build batching, I think we're entering unfamiliar new territory. It's unclear what pattern VIN sighting will show in the coming weeks. The only thing I can say for sure is if the exponential holds then highest VIN sighted should start mushrooming very quickly from here on out.

Let’s not forget that Tesla said that they would build 10% less S/X in Q4 compared to Q3 due to reallocation of the work force to M3. I doubt that that 10% has been used up: not enough M3 built, and no signs of less S/X production.
That means that the last 1 to 2 weeks of q4 there should be a big push to produce a lot of M3, and maybe even a production stop of S/X to get to 10% less production, allocating the entire workforce to M3, since the battery bottleneck should be solved around this time.
Tesla said nothing about Q1, but as production of M3 ramps a lot of that workforce may remain allocated to M3 production.
A production stop of S/X would also ideal for retooling for an S/X refresh.
It would also totally be the usual Tesla style to do a big push of M3 production the last week of Q4, report relatively/unexpectedly high M3 production numbers, and deal with the quality issues later in the service centers.
 
It won't for the simple fact that there is close down of the factory around the holiday.

Do we have any confirmation that Tesla will be closing the entire factory down for the Holiday period? I know they may have done that in prior years, but I would think it would be in their best interest to keep at least the Model 3 line up, and even more so the Gigafactory. Any info concerning this would be appreciated.

RT
 
It won't for the simple fact that there is close down of the factory around the holiday.

Regardless, we still need to factor in the possibility that this step up is a 'forced' stepup by Tesla to show wallstreet that they are making progress while they regroup and take their sweet time in Q1. Remember the production rate given for the X in the last week of 2015 which was making everyone feel very positive about the ramp up only to learn this was more or less fabricated by Tesla.
Forced step-up is not as likely in M3. As Elon and co described in quarterly call, Tesla can throw a lot of man hour at the MS/X and rush out a few hundred cars, like they did in Dec 2015. But that is not how they build the M3. The assembly line is automated, it either runs or it doesn't. Also I think it's cavalier to throw around words like "taking their sweet time". I don't think that's part of the Tesla culture and we should appreciate how hard they're working to get the M3 out to us.
 
As Elon and co described in quarterly call, Tesla can throw a lot of man hour at the MS/X and rush out a few hundred cars, like they did in Dec 2015. But that is not how they build the M3.

It is exactly how they build the first few hunderd Model 3 cars. It's not a question of if they can. It's a question of if they will.

The assembly line is automated, it either runs or it doesn't.

And if it doesn't run, pull third shift from another line and have them fill in the gaps manually.
 
It is exactly how they build the first few hunderd Model 3 cars. It's not a question of if they can. It's a question of if they will.



And if it doesn't run, pull third shift from another line and have them fill in the gaps manually.
I don't understand why people think that Tesla can build this rate (hundreds/wk) of M3 manually. Maybe it's just me. In 2015 they build ~250 MX in the whole month of Dec IIRC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: elasalle and kbM3
Huge thank you Dave!

That was exactly what I was hoping for when I made my post!

I sent my friend the correction on the number of shares last night and I received the following response before I sent him your email:
Oops, my bad. That changes things...

Then a few minutes later I got this reply :D:
So what is your option play at the moment?

@MitchJi First, I think your friend is actually quite articulate and thoughtful. I just think he hasn't really done a deep dive into TSLA, especially with numbers/forecasting 3 years out. It seems like he's more a person who's read readily available articles on TSLA but as we know those articles are rather shallow.

Send your friend this which I wrote elsewhere several months ago...

# shares outstanding: 185M shares (currently 164M outstanding)

2020 stock price = $972
Thanks again! I sent him a copy as soon as I read your post about ten minutes ago.

Information like this has the potential to change lives for the better!

I put the following together and sent a copy to my friend this morning a few minutes before I sent him your excellent post.

You might want to listen to this Podcast if you are concerned about Tesla being dominant in EV’s.

12.05.17 – Interview with Tesla Semi Reservation Holder Breytner Transport – TechCast Daily

At about 24 minutes she says that Mercedes and MAN are testing working prototypes of their own trucks and that they are shocked by the Tesla Semi specifications. There’s quite a bit of speculation on the web that Tesla is counting on a battery breakthrough because otherwise many people think that the size of the battery required is impossible for that price.

I’ve frequently seen the figure of $75 per kWh required for that to work financially. But by my calculations, which I believe are conservative I believe that batteries packs will cost Tesla a maximum of $85 per kWh by about 2019-2020 whenever they finish scaling their production at the Gigafactory.

A GM engineer didn’t believe that they were producing packs for under $195 per kWh when they announced that. The semi prices and specs make it harder to hide Tesla’s advantage in battery pack pricing.

The next podcast in the series is worth listening to as well:
12.06.17 – Interview with Trucking Industry TSLA Investor – TechCast Daily

The semi market is huge and Tesla is clearly on a path that’s disruptive. The reason I didn’t mention that before is that I don’t believe that an increase in the SP to over $400 per share is dependent on the semi. The main reason that I mentioned it now is to show how far ahead Tesla is with their car pack and TE pack costs.

I hope that at our proposed lunch that we have both taken advantage of TSLA share price increase, from about $300 to well over $400 per share!
 
Last edited:
Make sure you post your friend’s response to the factor of 1000 math error.

I am dying to know.
I already did that.

Huge thank you Dave! That was exactly what I was hoping for when I made my post!

I sent my friend the correction on the number of shares last night and I received the following response before I sent him your email:
Oops, my bad. That changes things...

Then a few minutes later I got this reply :D:
So what is your option play at the moment?


Thanks again! I sent him a copy as soon as I read your post about ten minutes ago.

Information like this has the potential to change lives for the better
And I’m taking the opportunity to repeat my huge thanks to @DaveT!

Very much appreciated!


And please let us know how much you love your M3!
 
Last edited:
I'd appreciate any help (particularly from @DaveT, @neroden @TradingInvest etc. ) showing a close friend that staying invested in TSLA for the next ~year is a wise move.
Reminder #1: the market anticipates.

If he thinks the future for Tesla is bright but the "next year or two will be bumpy".... there's very high odds that the stock will go up NEXT YEAR and then stay flat for a few years. Look at what happened in 2013-2014, a very bumpy period for Tesla's actual operations when the stock skyrocketed -- followed by a period when operations improved and smoothed out from 2014-2017, during which the stock did nothing.

Your friend is trying to time the market and that's a good way to lose out on all your gains.

I thought Tesla was going to languish in the $200s from last September until roughly now. Imagine how badly I would have done if I'd tried to time it! I didn't try to time it; I bought in heavily last fall. He should not try to time it either, unless he has a long record of successful stock timing (and I'm sure he doesn't, almost nobody does).

Back in 2013, I rode my $30-basis TSLA shares up to $180, back to $120, up to $240, back to $180, up to $280, back to $200... if I'd made the rookie mistake of trying to time it I probably would have missed all the gains and been in for the drops!

Reminder #2: you can project Tesla's profits.
Tesla's gross margins are not "speculation". They are reading numbers off a balance sheet. You may have to speculate at how fast the SG&A will grow, and you certainly have to speculate about when they'll hit production volume targets, but you don't have to speculate about the gross margins. The mere fact that your friend is confused about this shows his lack of understanding.

There is good reason to expect high gross margins from a fully automated production line, based on basic principles.

Furthermore, my valuation models vary in result *primarily* based on the number of Model 3s produced; wiggling the gross margins around doesn't really change the value much. This is an economies-of-scale business, period. The low-production-number models admittedly give me long-term TSLA valuations around $200, so I am betting on higher production numbers (as is the entire company).

Reminder #3:
Comparing to the valuations of other Western automakers is idiotic; their valuations are depressed due to bad management, legacy ICE businesses, a history of fraud, and a broken dealership business model, among other things. If you are going to compare to valuations of another auto company, look at the Chinese auto companies.

Reminder #4:
Tesla has never had any trouble raising cash.

Reminder #5: as pointed out before, your friend is off on the number of shares outstanding by a factor of 1000. Really, it's important to be at least using the right order of magnitude.

Your friend writes:
Finally, a quote from an analyst who's a little bearish on the stock: "Tesla can win as a company — but TSLA can still lose as a stock. At a certain point, even fantastic, transformative, growth is priced in."

This is certainly true as a general statement. However, what would your friend rather invest in? Cash? If so, fine, nothing wrong with excess conservatism. Take money off the table, sleep at night, as long as you don't feel bad about missing out.

If he would put the money in other investments, however, I see things which are deeply deeply wrong with almost anything else he could invest in, things which have much worse downsides with much higher odds. Perhaps you could point him to my analysis some time back of why Tesla will survive a nasty recession/bear market and most "blue chips" won't -- essentially Tesla is riding on the tailwind of the great energy transition, and most stocks aren't.




I always say, it's more important to sleep at night than to make money (I've been violating this a little lately, sorry to say...), so if your friend is uncomfortable, if it's keeping him up at night, by all means, he should sell and put his money in FDIC-insured bank accounts, or if he's really conservative, rolls of $100 bills in a safe deposit box.

If he was thinking of reinvesting the money, though, he'd better look at the risk profile of the alternative, and I'll bet it's worse.
 
Love the analysis!

I am not a finance guy so if the following question is ignorant please excuse me.

Don’t you think it will be difficult for Tesla to show $6B profit AND still maintain 50% growth in such a capital intensive industry in 2020?
Nope.

Profit doesn't include capital expansion (only depreciation on capital expansion).

Don't expect free cash flow. Tesla will turn money into factories.
 
Love this analysis. Can you add in Semi business model, that should kick in about 2 years? Also what are your thoughts regarding TE and adding that in to the model?
Tesla Semi business will be negligible in 2-3 years. It’s a longer term play by Tesla to capture a large piece of the logistics industry. People are all focused on the Semi but they should be looking at the software Tesla is making that will integrate logistics across all logistics platforms. A sort of OS for logistics. This is Tesla’s big play. Just my opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.