2018 Leaf vs Model 3

[SageBrush]

^
If he keeps it for 10 years, what does it matter how fast deprecation went for years 1 to 9?

@techmaven was talking about degradation, not depreciation.

To answer your question though, my reading between the lines of that post is that the depreciation has been so great that he has given up on the resale angle. That is at best a very dubious compliment to the car.

 

[bro1999]

I am surprised that even now, in 2017, the automotive journalists and especially EV centric automotive journalists don’t highlight the terrible battery degradation issues with the Leaf and Kia Soul EV. Most of the actual ownership issues surrounding EVs are still not regularly discussed in reviews and comparisons. It is almost like these people don’t own EVs at all.

I didn't know the Soul EV had Leaf-like degradation issues.

 

[chronopc]

ProPilot comes standard with the SV and SL, but NOT the S model selling for about $29 000 Cdn "all in" after taxes and with $14 000 Ontario rebate. By comparison: Bolt Premier = $45 000 and the Model 3 about $38 000 (base model). Longer range LEAF coming next year, which is when I may get delivery of my Model 3.

Good to know. So you're not getting ProPilot for free.

Base vs. base, you're getting a lot more with the Model 3. Top trim you're also getting a lot more with the Model 3.

I think the only person who would consider the Leaf 2 is someone who doesn't drive much and their number 1 goal is to reduce cost.

 

[Sdunnin]

...
A big advantage of Tesla cars is about the fact they are selling them cheaper than they cost, this is not viable in the long term, but for consumers it's great, but it can't be like that forever....

How do you know they are selling them below cost? I seriously doubt that is the case.

 

[zmarty]

You didn't do the homework - and chose the wrong dealership. There are very knowledgeable Leaf sales people in the Seattle area.

Also looks like you bought S, instead of SV, if streaming audio isn't enabled.

Are you seriously telling me I need to choose among the Nissan dealerships the ones that know how to sell this product? You are just making my point.

I also explained I bought the lower trim and I explained why I think it was bad for Nissan not including streaming.

 

[diplomat33]

A big advantage of Tesla cars is about the fact they are selling them cheaper than they cost, this is not viable in the long term, but for consumers it's great, but it can't be like that forever.

This is patently false.

 

[internalaudit]

@techmaven was talking about degradation, not depreciation.

To answer your question though, my reading between the lines of that post is that the depreciation has been so great that he has given up on the resale angle. That is at best a very dubious compliment to the car.

This is what Scotty7 said:
Let me make sure I understand. You have first get Leaf with an air-cooled battery resulting in industry-worst (and it isn't close!) battery degradation, are surprised it depreciated like a rock, and yet plan to keep it 10 years?


Battery degradation and replaced for $2,000 post-warranty as per your post on mynissanleaf is better than replacing door handles at $1,600 a pop and servicing brakes for $6k before labor costs (as per post a few months ago by a TMC member from Toronto). I understand battery shouldn't degrade that fast but Nissan does offer an eight year warranty for 70% capacity. Tesla doesn't even offer a battery capacity warranty.

I definitely don't have a money tree in my backyard but it seems many TMC members do. I look at the overall cost not just about battery degradation.

 

[narayan]

As a long time Leaf owner (early 2011 model), I can categorically say it has been a very terrific car. Almost zero maintenance. Range became an issue last year due to first gen battery degradation. I paid to get new battery put in (I didn't abuse the battery like many others did to get an almost free replacement). Nissan didn't bother to give me and others who babied their cars any kind of a discount even after talking to them. I thought they should have treated their early adopters who put in a deposit 6 months in advance a little bit better. I didn't want to settle for a Bolt or any other EV. I passed on the Model S and X - they were too much car for me. I put in a 2nd gen battery out of my own pocket and have now extended the life of the battery for at least 4 or 5 years. I am now set for the M3 with the biggest battery they can put in.

 

[jim5359]

Base vs. base, you're getting a lot more with the Model 3. Top trim you're also getting a lot more with the Model 3.

I think the only person who would consider the Leaf 2 is someone who doesn't drive much and their number 1 goal is to reduce cost.

A fully loaded Leaf 2 SL is $36,200 MSRP. To get a comparably equipped Model 3 you'd have to get the Premium package and Auto Pilot, and assuming you want something other than black you're now looking at $46,000. For most people that $10K difference is HUGE, and that's before any inevitable discounting off the Leaf 2 MSRP and not factoring in federal tax credits (or lack thereof). Not to mention, you'll be able to get a Leaf in a few months vs at least a year wait for a Model 3.

 

[30seconds]

A fully loaded Leaf 2 SL is $36,200 MSRP. To get a comparably equipped Model 3 you'd have to get the Premium package and Auto Pilot, and assuming you want something other than black you're now looking at $46,000. For most people that $10K difference is HUGE, and that's before any inevitable discounting off the Leaf 2 MSRP and not factoring in federal tax credits (or lack thereof). Not to mention, you'll be able to get a Leaf in a few months vs at least a year wait for a Model 3.

What does a SL Leaf 2 have that a Model 3 base doesn't have?

 

[SageBrush]

A fully loaded Leaf 2 SL is $36,200 MSRP. To get a comparably equipped Model 3 you'd have to get the Premium package and Auto Pilot, and assuming you want something other than black you're now looking at $46,000. For most people that $10K difference is HUGE, and that's before any inevitable discounting off the Leaf 2 MSRP and not factoring in federal tax credits (or lack thereof). Not to mention, you'll be able to get a Leaf in a few months vs at least a year wait for a Model 3.

The problem with your comparo is that an SV LEAF is in no way close to the value of a $46k Tesla.

Consider:
The only thing you know about ProPilot is that it is speed limited to 62 mph. So I would tell you to take it for some testing but alas ... it is a work in progress behind Tesla and without OTA updates.
The Tesla battery starts out at 220k miles with a Tesla TMS; the Leaf starts out with ~ 150 miles and gets a passive temperature box with proven degradation that would make PT Barnum blush.
Tesla Performance, Tesla design Vs LEAF performance, LEAF design
Oh .. and by the way ... the Tesla has a SC network to use.

As for discounting, that goes without saying. The LEAF will eventually sell according to its value. And since the ProPilot is of debatable value, lets compare the base Tesla to your favorite LEAF. Skip the base version LEAF if you want more than 3 kW charging or navigation.

Actually, just skip the LEAF if you want more than a 50 mile radius econobox commuter for your $30k pre tax credit dollars.

 

[TimM.]

Well at least it's not hideous..

Completely shocked they still don't have active battery management.. that makes it a non-starter. The only option is to lease it then, and leasing (IMO) is stupid, so I guess this is an easy call on avoiding it.

For those saying no SC network is a downside... you don't get this car to go on trips so it's irrelevant... once M3 backlog is gone, bolt and leaf will have serious issues selling, assuming Tesla doesn't encounter early reliability issues.

 

[SageBrush]

For those saying no SC network is a downside... you don't get this car to go on trips so it's irrelevant...

That is a circular argument

I could in the same vein say people don't buy 84 mile (when new) LEAFS to travel outside their neighborhood in a few years, so range is irrelevant.

 

[Foxhound199]

For those saying no SC network is a downside... you don't get this car to go on trips so it's irrelevant...

Kind of like selling someone an excellent parachute so long as they don't plan on jumping out of any planes.

 

[206er]

I think the only person who would consider the Leaf 2 is someone who doesn't drive much and their number 1 goal is to reduce cost.

This is my me/us! Me and my wife are cross-shopping the base 3 against a decently optioned Civic, Accord, and now the new Leaf, purely based on price, appearance, reliability, features, and environmental impact.

My only reasons for wanting & having reserved a Model 3 are because it's an EV with decent range, it's great looking, and is relatively affordable (we'd only get the $35k base model). My wife's wants for a car boil down to safety, reliability, heated front seats, and general appearance. She isn't as interested in going EV as me, so even the base Tesla seems like an expensive toy when compared to a "perfectly fine" Civic or Accord.

Fuel savings aren't really a factor favoring the 3 for us since we drive 5-6k mainly city miles per year and our cheapest quote for having a 14-50 outlet installed for charging has been about $1,000. Not sure what our kwh costs to charge would be, but my last electric bill shows 2 different summer residential energy charges of 96kwh .0712 & 600kwh x .1307 kwh.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

In Bev leaf 2, bolt, m3 are all competing.
If you then look at the value you're getting I see it as follows and it's a pretty clear picture:

$37k Bolt == spark $15k
$29k leaf 2 == corolla == civic $20k
$35k m3 == BMW 3 series == Audi a4 $38k

 

[diplomat33]

For those saying no SC network is a downside... you don't get this car to go on trips so it's irrelevant...

Imagine if we did not have lot of gas stations and auto makers tried to sell an ICE car with say only 150 miles to a tank with the argument "there aren't a lot of places to refuel and you only have a gas range of 150 miles, but hey, the car isn't meant for long trips anyway so it does not matter". So why is it an ok argument for EVs?

 

[SageBrush]

This is my me/us! Me and my wife are cross-shopping the base 3 against a decently optioned Civic, Accord, and now the new Leaf, purely based on price, appearance, reliability, features, and environmental impact.

My only reasons for wanting & having reserved a Model 3 are because it's an EV with decent range, it's great looking, and is relatively affordable (we'd only get the $35k base model). My wife's wants for a car boil down to safety, reliability, heated front seats, and general appearance. She isn't as interested in going EV as me, so even the base Tesla seems like an expensive toy when compared to a "perfectly fine" Civic or Accord.

Fuel savings aren't really a factor favoring the 3 for us since we drive 5-6k mainly city miles per year and our cheapest quote for having a 14-50 outlet installed for charging has been about $1,000. Not sure what our kwh costs to charge would be, but my last electric bill shows 2 different summer residential energy charges of 96kwh .0712 & 600kwh x .1307 kwh.

Prius Prime ?
I have one while waiting for a Model 3 and think is is outstanding value.

 

[chronopc]

A fully loaded Leaf 2 SL is $36,200 MSRP. To get a comparably equipped Model 3 you'd have to get the Premium package and Auto Pilot, and assuming you want something other than black you're now looking at $46,000. For most people that $10K difference is HUGE, and that's before any inevitable discounting off the Leaf 2 MSRP and not factoring in federal tax credits (or lack thereof). Not to mention, you'll be able to get a Leaf in a few months vs at least a year wait for a Model 3.

You don't really know when the Leaf will come out. It might be a few months, it might be closer to a year. But it's a valid point.

The rest of your point doesn't make sense. It's the equivalent of comparing a Corolla to an BMW 3-Series. Yes they both drive and yes the Corolla is much cheaper. And there are definitely people who buy the Corolla over the BMW 3-Series. However, would you say they are competing in the same market? I would say definitely not. Cause when BMW is building it's new model they are not looking at Toyota to see what the Corolla is offering. When it comes to cars, brand matters and Tesla is definitely a premium brand.

 

[Mr X]

It's 2017 and Tesla has still has yet to have any competition.


Everything every other car manufacturer puts out is a joke! (Except the Volt)


Wouldn't spend a penny on the UgLeaf.