33% range loss in cold winter conditions

[PeterK]

Thanks for the info. So preheating the cabin doesn't really do anything for conditioning the battery? Good to know, I can just do what you do and set it to start charging a few hours before I plan to leave.

How are you doing that through Alexa/Siri? We got Google home so would love to be able to do it that way. Are you using an IFTTT routine?

EV Car/My Tesla - An Alexa skill for Amazon Echo / Tesla integration

Though I haven't used mine in a bit so not sure if it's still working, especially as I now have a 3 in addition to my X. More useful in the winter. There must be something similar for Google.

For Siri, I read somewhere that you can use Apple Shortcuts and the Remote S app, which I bought so that I could use my watch to discreetly check on the car's charging or turn on the climate control during a meeting. I haven't tried it but here are a couple of demonstration videos.

 

[SSonnentag]

I found that winter range loss is really only an issue for the first leg of a very long drive. During the first 1-2 hours the car is getting warmed up, both in the cabin and in the batteries. After that, the WH/mile drops to near normal. So for your daily commutes the range is fine anyway, except for those few folks that drive 100 miles each way to work. On cross country trips, hours 3 through end-of-day are only 5-10% above temperate weather driving.

 

[aesculus]

I put a ton of features in EVTO to deal with the effects of winter driving and it makes a big difference in the estimations:

• cabin temperatures
• cabin preheating
• wind speed and direction per leg
• outside air temperature
• precipitation
• road slush
• battery heating (MX/MS), both pre and en route
• cold soaked batteries
• use of Range Mode
• hour by hour forecasts at and between waypoints
• look ahead and look behind weather forecasts for each waypoint

You can read some of my suggestions on winter driving with an EV and access a tutorial on how to use these features here:

Winter Driving with EVTO

 

[ZeApelido]

This is news to me. Living in a moderate climate, when I hear all these claims about the battery not able to handle cold temps, I didn't bother to look into it.

In actuality, it's mostly FUD. For long drives, range isn't hurt too much. For shorter drives it is, but who cares you have plenty if capacity left. Of course you will have to pay more for electricity, but that's a separate issue.

 

[SageBrush]

I found that winter range loss is really only an issue for the first leg of a very long drive. During the first 1-2 hours the car is getting warmed up, both in the cabin and in the batteries. After that, the WH/mile drops to near normal. So for your daily commutes the range is fine anyway, except for those few folks that drive 100 miles each way to work. On cross country trips, hours 3 through end-of-day are only 5-10% above temperate weather driving.

Cold weather driving in AZ ? 70F ?

 

[aesculus]

In actuality, it's mostly FUD.

Trust me, it's not FUD. The 33% range loss may be at the high end (I have seen it even higher) but it is real. Sure if you drive around the bay area it's just a few percent and you will never notice it.

Go out across the country on longer trips where you car can safely make it in the summer between charging stops and with inclement weather, you now barely scrape by, or even worse, cannot even make it. This is not FUD.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

3-5 F is nothing for ICE cars in cold regions where everything from oils, to fuels, to ICE batteries, to car engine heaters and equipment is geared towards, well, having a winter every year.

Though it's pretty close to where some people would start plugging in their block heaters just in-case it got cold overnight. It's definitely better for your vehicle to use the block heater otherwise you've got that minute or two of cold oil that chips away with premature engine wear.

Of course. Block heaters are part of the infrastructure I meant/mentioned (that's what I referred to as an engine heater), as are equipping ICEs with bigger batteries from factory and possibly using battery chargers, radiator shields you mentioned etc. People basically plug in their ICEs for the night (which by the way might bode well for BEVs in a cultural way), this has been done for decades.

At a certain point you have to leave diesels running to provide warmth to their fuel tanks or they'll gel.

True. Diesel is more vulnerable than gasoline, though not at 3-5 °F in regions where the diesel supply is geared towards winter. Regular winter diesel peaks at around -34 °C and arctic diesel - again a question of infrastrcuture in the region - goes to perhaps -40 °C -44 °C depending on the type.

 

[mobil-ai]

I would disagree with the numbers. -30 or -40 F is deep freeze and causes starting problems.

3-5 F (-15/-16 C) is a normal winter's day in snowy regions and definitely does not cause starting problems on any scale.

Anyway, onto the topic:

Personally I deduct 50% of range winter-time on Model S/X, especially if I have to drive motorways. That's about safe.

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Well, deduct at least 40% for California winter! And if on a long road trip, use the Energy app to see projected range. It seems pretty accurate as it can be based on last 30, 15, or 5 miles.

To my own chagrin, discovered Tesla Model 3's severe range limitations while driving to Los Angeles and back from San Francisco Bay area during the Christmas week. We stooped more often than normally needed to charge and once almost had a panic situation as someone accidentally left the defogger on for about 30 to 40 minutes to defog the windshield, when the air heaters were also running as it was so cold outside. We barely made it to the next Supercharger in the middle of the night, by promptly shutting of all heating and bundling up!!

One cannot drive without air heaters when outside temps are in low 40s and 50s. And the air heaters just kills the range! Plus we had 4 people in the car and the weight of the luggage may have further aggravated range problems.

It Seems the current 250 mile range for Model 3 SR+ (after the 5% recent range increase) is only for ideal conditions - single passenger with no significant luggage, driving on nearly flat terrain with pleasant outside temps (let's say mid 60s to 70s) and heaters and A/C off!! That's ridiculous, because in most of the world, not just US, you are going to need A/C or heating at various times and you are going to encounter hills. (The regenerative braking cannot possibly be giving back the same energy it takes to climb the hills).

I drove around town later in the cold later, with no heaters, and discovered the dramatic decrease in Kwh/mile with heater off.

For hassle free driving in heat or cold up to 350 miles in a Tesla, Tesla may need to increase range of SR+ to about 425 miles, to compensate for the 40% decrease in range when driving under cold (0 to 50 F) conditions. Either that or provide even faster superchargers and more of them!!

Below is an article that highlights the above range related issues, in a study by AAA. These issues need to get more publicity so we can have more informed Tesla buyers who can decide if they are willing and able to put up with such challenges or not. (To be clear, I love my Tesla despite these learning experiences. Glad to be part of the electric revolution)!

Tesla and other electric car batteries lose 40% of their range in extremely cold weather: AAA

 

[Electroman]

That is why LR is worth the weight in gold.. figuratively.. Range is King and will be king for a long time until we get 300 miles solid 'cold weather with head winds and snow' range. Which perhaps means 500 miles good weather range.

 

[CA_Car_Guy]

Mix. The wife drives <5 miles to work every day, which I'm sure is an efficiency killer. I think the 40% figure is more applicable to short trip driving.
On a longer road trip driving in snowy conditions with the wife and 2 kids, my Bolt got about 170 miles/2.8 miles per kWh on a full charge, which is a 29% decrease.

I saw the same 385 watthr/mile 38F doing about 75mph for 500 miles I was lucky to see over 200 miles a charge...my wife ruining the heat was a bigger range hit than the speed.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Kinda depends on the temps. You can’t really use blanket statements. I know with our leaf and it’s heat pump as long as it is even slightly above freezing we see no where close to 40 percent loss. Maybe 20. Wonder if Tesla will ever do the heat pump thing.

 

[ElectricIAC]

That is why LR is worth the weight in gold.. figuratively.. Range is King and will be king for a long time until we get 300 miles solid 'cold weather with head winds and snow' range. Which perhaps means 500 miles good weather range.

All these cars are especially susceptible to outside factors far more than ICE cars due to just how efficient they are. I’d really just like to see Tesla advertise EPA range at the recommended daily 90% charge to bring things down closer to reality.

 

[SageBrush]

Kinda depends on the temps. You can’t really use blanket statements. I know with our leaf and it’s heat pump as long as it is even slightly above freezing we see no where close to 40 percent loss. Maybe 20. Wonder if Tesla will ever do the heat pump thing.

Yep -- a YMMV for sure.

I'm used to seeing about a 10% range drop in winter temps in the 30 - 40F range. I think my losses are less than some anecdotes for a couple of reasons:

• I rely on the seat heaters mostly for comfort
• It is usually sunny
• I live in a dry climate. Removing moisture is an energy hog. For this reason I do not take hot drinks into the car
• If it is really cold I pre-heat

 

[derotam]

I saw the same 385 watthr/mile 38F doing about 75mph for 500 miles I was lucky to see over 200 miles a charge...my wife ruining the heat was a bigger range hit than the speed.

Just for reference, I'm going to say the heater was costing you max 53Wh/mile at 75mph. I am using 4kW heater maintenance draw which is probably high that what it actually was for you. Just figured you might be interested in that comment.

I do plan on getting more data points but the one real data point I do have is that an Auto set point of 80F with an outside temp of 55F causes a constant 3kW cabin heater draw(after cabin warm up). This was a very uncomfortable test by the way but I had to do it to respond to someone's comment on another forum.