voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
The only cars that wouldn't be starting at 3F or 5F are those that have poor batteries or weak starters. So sure, "many cars around New England" aren't starting because they aren't properly maintained.
I grew up just south of the Canadian border in northern VT and it was an absolute expectation that all of our cars & trucks would start unless it was below zero.... or unless the car had a battery that needed replacement.
Now, the range hit is much more severe than I was led to believe we would see. When I opened a few months ago that 30% or more range reduction in cold temps was normal I had several people from colder areas tell me the range reduction was overblown and it was nowhere near that much.
Now we see that in fact it is.
I can definitely see that for my uses purchasing LR battery is a must... especially when factoring in range degradation, etc.
Engine oils, too. If cold weather oil is not used, when any normal winter day could of course be a problem.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
That's true, although if one used an engine block heater not such a big deal.
Engine block heater is similar crutch to Tesla's "keep the car plugged in when it's cold" methodology.
Dont know the last time i went further than 100 miles to go skiiing or some other trip without needing a fillup or charge for that matter. SR works just fine
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
You can't know it works 'just fine' when it doesn't even exist. The temp drop doesn't factor in other losses such as driving uphill for numerous miles which would be typical when getting to many ski areas.
Some ski resort locations would be overnight stays with no ability to charge.... or some kind of crowded charger situation.
Stoneymonster
Active Member
There’s nothing new here. What are people’s experiences with the S and X. Particularly in Norway, where there should be tons of data.
Dynastar
Member
Was 1F today for the high. Leaf and S behaved fine, neighbor's Cube didn't want to start at all. It's easy to say that properly maintained ICE start just fine but not everyone stays on top of these things. EVs can have cold weather issues too but coming out of your house in a hurry to get to work and having them not start is pretty rare.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Below -10F is worth chatting about around here.
Last year's low was -18F IIRC.
While the Artic routinely goes to -40F, often -50F
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omgwtfbyobbq
Active Member
Of course.
My general point was that 3-5 F is not a time when ICE's fail, unless of course they or their users are improperly equipped for a cold climate. People have listed many things that can go wrong, but they don't really go wrong in areas where winter is the norm. As you note, in cold areas ICEs are plugged in at night too, unless kept in a warm garage.
In areas where 3-5 F is the norm (or even a warm winter's day) for a significant portion of the year, the cars and the infrastructure (e.g. fuels and oils) are maintained to a standard that definitely means these are not yet problematic temperatures at all in any widespread manner. (Not even when not plugged in, 3-5 F really is not that cold.)
In my experience after three winters in a Tesla, the loss of BEV range is a much bigger issue in winter-time than getting an ICE started, because it is present all the time and starts already at much warmer temperatures than 3-5 F...
Incidentally, the last time I did have an ICE issue in winter-time some years ago, it was for the same reason: the coldness had reduced aging battery (12V) voltage - in a bit older car - too much, and lots of short drives didn't charge it enough, and it just needed a charge.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
There’s 40%-50% range loss regularly during an average week of in-town short trips in balmy SoCal and that’s not even during what passes for cold wx here.
Urban and suburban non-garaged Model 3 owners who will rely upon $0.20/kW charging will be in for a bit of a surprise. There will be no savings relative to efficient hybrids.
Can only imagine what short hilly trips in late January in Vermont would yield.
Fortunately, the LR battery would provide the range for someone who works in Burlington and lives in, say, Hancock or Granville, Vermont for their round trip. For one day.
Hopefully they have a garage or barn with a 50A, else they’re going to become very familiar with the South Burlington or Berlin SCs.
Just as one real-world example.
Tangentially, this is why I’ve long opined that the optimal range for a pickup truck is 600 miles. Living between 20% and 80% gives you 360 miles and 50% of that for short cold hilly trips nets 180 miles of practical range. Probably ok for a day for most people, yeah.
Copacetically, the upcoming roadster already has a 600-mile range. How hard can it be to stack 2 packs from an S/X/3 under the bed of that pickup truck*?
Et voila! Easy peasy! Bring on that F-350 killer, Elon! When ranchers in Wyoming or dairy farmers in Vermont are seen in their Tesla pickups with the obligatory Tesla grin, we’ll know that the corner has truly been turned.
* That’s a somewhat rhetorical question for the humor-impaired.
Urban and suburban non-garaged Model 3 owners who will rely upon $0.20/kW charging will be in for a bit of a surprise. There will be no savings relative to efficient hybrids.
Can only imagine what short hilly trips in late January in Vermont would yield.
Fortunately, the LR battery would provide the range for someone who works in Burlington and lives in, say, Hancock or Granville, Vermont for their round trip. For one day.
Hopefully they have a garage or barn with a 50A, else they’re going to become very familiar with the South Burlington or Berlin SCs.
Just as one real-world example.
Tangentially, this is why I’ve long opined that the optimal range for a pickup truck is 600 miles. Living between 20% and 80% gives you 360 miles and 50% of that for short cold hilly trips nets 180 miles of practical range. Probably ok for a day for most people, yeah.
Copacetically, the upcoming roadster already has a 600-mile range. How hard can it be to stack 2 packs from an S/X/3 under the bed of that pickup truck*?
Et voila! Easy peasy! Bring on that F-350 killer, Elon! When ranchers in Wyoming or dairy farmers in Vermont are seen in their Tesla pickups with the obligatory Tesla grin, we’ll know that the corner has truly been turned.
* That’s a somewhat rhetorical question for the humor-impaired.
those numbers are seriously shocking to me.
I haven`t really kept up with the battery tech and didn`t know that range loss in cold climate was still such a huge issue....
That cuts a big hole in the efficiency calculation in 3+ months of the year where I live.
hmmm
I haven`t really kept up with the battery tech and didn`t know that range loss in cold climate was still such a huge issue....
That cuts a big hole in the efficiency calculation in 3+ months of the year where I live.
hmmm
At Model S | Tesla Deutschland you can see how much range you win/lose because of temperature for the model S (see picture below in your language
).For the 3 the percentage range loss will probably be about the same although the batteryheating for 3 and S/X are different. I guess the real world numbers may differ, but then it also depends on your typical situation.
Maybe the best thing you could do is ask a current S owner in your part of the country about their range loss due to low temperature. Then you get an idea of the real world percentage.
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~20-25% loss according to the Tesla Calculator.At Model S | Tesla Deutschland you can see how much range you win/lose because of temperature for the model S (see picture below in your language
For the 3 the percentage range loss will probably be about the same although the batteryheating for 3 and S/X are different. I guess the real world numbers may differ, but then it also depends on your typical situation.
Maybe the best thing you could do is ask a current S owner in your part of the country about their range loss due to low temperature. Then you get an idea of the real world percentage.
Better than the reported 30+% here but still
Like I said, ask an owner in your region. He might give you some advice or tell you exactly how much he loses and it might be less than you expect. F.e. I heard from a Dutch guy who stated he'd never lost more than 10% in cold weather by pre-heating.~20-25% loss according to the Tesla Calculator.
Better than the reported 30+% here but still
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
This question is VERY driver dependent, mostly because cabin heating is such an energy hog on long drives and some people use defrost rather than scrape the windshield.
My winter fuel economy takes a 20-30% hit just like everybody else, but I still beat EPA in the winter.
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All of the range calculations and totals are anecdotal at best, a lot of factors go into determining range in both hot and cold temperatures. Headwinds, driving speed, road conditions, HVAC settings, weight of car, elevation... the list goes on and on and on. All of theses things factor into ICE range also the difference being a Tesla relies on efficiency much more than an ICE car does that and an ICE car produces mass amounts heat as a byproduct of running. Short answer is it depends, and Tesla needs to do a better job at calculating navigation/charging stops based on the weather... unless they want to leave people who don’t know any better stranded on the side of the road. If navigation tells people to leave for the next charger then 20 miles down the road says they will arrive with -30 percent that will become a huge issue...
Looks like the 3 and S are impacted similarly due to cold.
I start to see a little range loss whenever it gets in to the 40's. A typical winter for us sees temps as low as in the 20's, and I typically see about a 30% loss in range as it drops to that.
This has been the coldest winter since I've lived here, we've dropped to 0 at least once, and negative double-digit wind chills. I've seen almost 50% range loss on those days.
This assumes no issues other than cold (heavy snow to drive, wind, etc...). I also point out that the loss is typically front loaded on the drive as the car heats up, so if you only go 10 miles, the relative loss will be greater.
I start to see a little range loss whenever it gets in to the 40's. A typical winter for us sees temps as low as in the 20's, and I typically see about a 30% loss in range as it drops to that.
This has been the coldest winter since I've lived here, we've dropped to 0 at least once, and negative double-digit wind chills. I've seen almost 50% range loss on those days.
This assumes no issues other than cold (heavy snow to drive, wind, etc...). I also point out that the loss is typically front loaded on the drive as the car heats up, so if you only go 10 miles, the relative loss will be greater.
PeterK
Model X & 3 Owner
Exactly. I’m in the Boston area and after a week of single-digit or even -F temps, I saw multiple cars and trucks getting jump starts or otherwise disabled due to the cold. Including a school bus, which I hope wasn’t full at the time. Further north and in more rural areas people are more likely to use engine block heaters and trickle chargers, but unlikely with Boston city folks.
EV range definitely takes a hit, much more so when you’re doing a lot of short trips interrupted by parking in the cold. If you preheat and drive longer periods on the highway, the car even captures some heat from the motor(s) and inverter, and funnels it back to the battery.
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