40kwh Model S canceled

[dsmith2189]

Not speculation: The 60's cell count can't be calculated based on 85 specifications. The 60's have a different battery chemistry for a variety of reasons. Regardign P85 vs. 85 cells, they're the same. However, among other things, the P85's have a more robust ac/dc inverter/converter that provides more current to the motor. Greater current and capacity provide the better performance.

I don't know that was ever confirmed. At any rate, my question was answered (i.e., we don't know) and is a discussion for another thread.

Sorry if this has been covered, I'm still trying to catch up with this topic.
From Teslatap.com

◦85KW – 7000+ cells, Panasonic (and others?) Lithium-Ion 3.1 Ah NCR-18650A
◦60KW – 4940+ cells, Panasonic (and others?) Lithium-Ion 3.1 Ah NCR-18650A
◦40KW – 4940+ cells, Panasonic (and others?) Lithium-Ion 3.1 Ah NCR-18650A, Software limited to 40 KW

 

[DrComputer]

Not to sound like a conspiracy theory person, but anyone in the computer hardware business knows that companies like to make more "software" options to increase profit margins and build fewer hardware configurations. Look at any scanner, copier or printer made in the past few years. There might be four different models in each product line each offering different speeds or features all limited by nothing more than software. The 30 page per minute scanner and the 40 page per minute scanner are the exact same hardware with just a software chip that limits the speed.

We've seen this before with the Roadster 2.0 versus the Roadster Sport 2.0. At first Tesla claimed there was a special "hand wound" motor that increased speed but that was later stricken from any marketing materials and all of the techs "in the know" said it was nothing more than a firmware difference between the two cars. Now look at the Model S. The only difference in the description between the P85 and the standard 85 is a "high performance drive inverter". There is nothing that really says that the standard 85 model doesn't also have this same drive inverter. It is just implied that it doesn't. We are also assuming that there is a difference between the 85kw battery and the 60kw. Tesla could just be making ALL cars with the exact same pack and software limiting the 85kw pack to 60kw. Why not? Far less engineering and support needed to support one pack configuration. When I last spoke to anyone at Tesla I was told they hadn't made any cars even for testing with the standard suspension. I wouldn't be surprised if the next announcement is that the air suspension will become standard and the base price of all of the cars will go up by $1500.

This is just my conspiracy theory conjecture.

 

[dsmith2189]

Another small advantage for those with the 40 on order is taxes. Initial car buying taxes are lower.

and the final costs for a 60 will be less since you can do the upgrade when you have the cash available and not pay interest on the upgrade costs.

 

[LazyBear]

FWIW, I ordered a 60kw with Supercharging.

I'll only be irritated if future 60kw buyers get free Supercharging, while previous buyers paid $2000.

I'll also be a bit peeved if someone hacks the 40kw software limit at some point

This happens every year in regular cars. First model year leather or nav or parking sensors or whatever are options, in the next year or two they become standard. Happens all the time.

 

[SteveWest]

@mjtgroup re not getting your car till May, I have a signature performance 85 reserved and won't see it till January (2014)!

 

[1ton]

I wasn't aware of a deadline to configure a 40kw. I am in the "design and finalize" stage. I talked to my rep earlier yesterday and he said I had limited time, his guess was a few days. I log on last night to see that the 40kw was no longer available. I'm so upset because I never got any information to ACT NOW! I had always intended to get the 40kw. Now what? I don't want to pay an extra 10k.

 

[David_Cary]

So what about the RavEV that is a Tesla 40 kwh drivetrain? Are these really 60's? Or did they make 40 batteries?

Kind of fishy. I suspect they made the financial decision that they could make more money on the 60s rather than an R&D decision. I do realize there is a little more to the equation than a battery but if they already made 2600 batteries for Toyota, their explanation is a little short.

The 40 kwh battery partyly sold poorly because it wasn't available yet. That made somewhat of a difference and it hadn't been EPA certified yet - maybe the range was 170 and the MPGe up enough that people would want it?

 

[yobigd20]

I don't want to pay an extra 10k.

It's worth it, trust me. You won't be disappointed.

 

[Rifleman]

I think there were several major factors that resulted in the low rate of 40 kWh reservations. I also think that a lot of the dropped reservations (mine included) were going to be 40's. I had planned on getting a 40, but it was becoming clear that a 40 was not going to be available in the time frame that I needed a car, and it is still not 100% clear that a 40 would have had enough range to be my everyday driver. I could not afford a 60 (the high service plan price was the final thing that pushed that dream out of reach), and faced with needing to finalize and make my deposit non-refundable without hard details on when I would get my car, and if it would even do the job for me, I had no choice but to drop. It would be interesting to see how many more 60's were reserved after the EPA numbers for that model came out, as it might provide a benchmark for what the actual demand for the 40 would have been.

 

[arondaniel]

It's worth it, trust me. You won't be disappointed.

It's worth it, yes, but that 63k base price is roughly twice the comfort level of non car-obsessed people (like my s.o.). So maybe you trade in all your relationship capital and get it anyway, but at 63k there is very little room for options... and I've never met an option I didn't like.

Yeah, I know. Gen III.

 

[JRP3]

We've seen this before with the Roadster 2.0 versus the Roadster Sport 2.0. At first Tesla claimed there was a special "hand wound" motor that increased speed but that was later stricken from any marketing materials and all of the techs "in the know" said it was nothing more than a firmware difference between the two cars.

So Tesla flat out lied?

We are also assuming that there is a difference between the 85kw battery and the 60kw. Tesla could just be making ALL cars with the exact same pack and software limiting the 85kw pack to 60kw. Why not?

Because Tesla can't afford to give away 25kWh of battery in all the 60kWh cars. It's one thing to give away 20kWh in a small percentage of cars and then no longer produce them, it's not going to happen with the 60kWh volume of production. Not to mention the 60kWh cars are lighter than the 85's.

- - - Updated - - -

So what about the RavEV that is a Tesla 40 kwh drivetrain? Are these really 60's? Or did they make 40 batteries?

Kind of fishy. I suspect they made the financial decision that they could make more money on the 60s rather than an R&D decision. I do realize there is a little more to the equation than a battery but if they already made 2600 batteries for Toyota, their explanation is a little short.

I'm fairly certain the RAV pack has a different physical construction than the S, and I doubt they are at all interchangeable.

 

[1ton]

I'd love to get the 60kw but with the options I want plus tax I'm looking at 77k car. I wanted this car to drive to and from work (I drive about 60 miles a day). I'm just saying I am disappointed that there was no notification to me about discontinuing the 40kw besides the press release or on the forum. Plus no time given to finalize my order for a 40kw. I found out in the morning, contacted the rep to confirm and tried to place my order in the evening.

 

[Martini]

When the MS was in the incubator, I don't think they really intended to make a 40k pack. The super chargers and stations also seem like afterthoughts.

I believe they intended the MS packs to be swap-able; roll into Barstow, have a robotic arm change out your 'leased' pack... be back on the road to Vegas in 20 minutes.

That's right. They were hedging their bets with swappable batteries for a while before they decided that superchargers were a better solution.

They needed the 40KW pack to hit a price point, but I think they expected to sell a lot of 40's. Turns out that avoiding range anxiety is worth a lot to customers. We'll see how other players in the EV market respond to this. Everyone else made assumptions about the marketability of large expensive batteries that Tesla has proved to be incorrect.

 

[orangem]

Full disclosure, I am a 40kwh reservation holder, so may be I am a bit biased. I commend Tesla for being transparent with the 40. Any other company will just cancel the 40 model without going through the trouble of telling customers they are going to get a software limited version. For sure if they just only announced the cancellation without the upgrade path , I will upgrade now to a 60. They decided to be transparent proactively instead of being caught later on (think of all the automakers with a bogus Hp claim and got caught). They could have adopt a more profitable path but they didn't. Tesla, you are definitely a different company and you won a long term customer here.

Sent from my GT-P7500R using Tapatalk HD

 

[Snowdog]

Only the fence sitters need complain on this one. Tough. You snoozed, you lost.

For those who have 40KWh reservations this is nothing but win. They have a very durable battery that can be full range charged all the time, but will still be under 70% SoC, meaning very low stress and very long life battery, and more power online for better performance.

Very nice way to cancel a product.

 

[ChadS]

We've seen this before with the Roadster 2.0 versus the Roadster Sport 2.0. At first Tesla claimed there was a special "hand wound" motor that increased speed but that was later stricken from any marketing materials and all of the techs "in the know" said it was nothing more than a firmware difference between the two cars.

If this was true...why doesn't Tesla sell all the CPO 2.x Roadsters as Sports? They'd just need new firmware, and Tesla gets free money. Tesla could even say they upgraded the motor or something.

 

[JRod0802]

Personally, I'm not the slightest bit surprised that it didn't sell. Quite often in a premium market like this, people are drawn in by the affordable price and then upsell themselves. I know from personal experience that if you add a low-end version to your product matrix, you might only rarely sell one, but simply having it there boosts your sales!

So do you think that canceling the 40kWh version will hurt Tesla's sales of the larger batteries?

 

[qwk]

If this was true...why doesn't Tesla sell all the CPO 2.x Roadsters as Sports? They'd just need new firmware, and Tesla gets free money. Tesla could even say they upgraded the motor or something.

I don't think that this is true at all. There are differences in hardware on the sport models. I'm sure it's like that on the P85's as well. It may not be a whole lot of hardware difference, but I really doubt they are the same.

- - - Updated - - -

When I last spoke to anyone at Tesla I was told they hadn't made any cars even for testing with the standard suspension. I wouldn't be surprised if the next announcement is that the air suspension will become standard and the base price of all of the cars will go up by $1500.

This must have been quite a while ago, as standard suspension exists and has for at least a couple of months.

 

[wbrumfiel]

Only the fence sitters need complain on this one. Tough. You snoozed, you lost.

For those who have 40KWh reservations this is nothing but win. They have a very durable battery that can be full range charged all the time, but will still be under 70% SoC, meaning very low stress and very long life battery, and more power online for better performance.

Very nice way to cancel a product.

I'm not necessarily a fence sitter. I know I want the Tesla and I wanted the 40 kWh size but I'm unable to order one currently due to some financial considerations (wife is having a baby and taking 6 months off, meaning no income for 1/2 the year). My plan was to put in my reservation later this year and hopefully take delivery in early 2014. Now you're telling me I'm a minimum $10k extra now for the car. Yes I get extra things for that money but it wasn't something I was willing to pay for/needed. I think they were kind of short-sighted with this decision because they only took current reservation #s, not possible future sales. I know a lot of people were waiting for 40s to be produced before taking the plunge on the smaller battery. That's fine, I still love Tesla and hope they succeed I just think it was a bad long-term decision. Now I'll be waiting to see the Gen III and hoping its not some insanely ugly vehicle.

 

[JackA]

Pretty sure the standard suspension has been designed.... We have driven about 1,000 in our car that has the standard suspension...