Percentage wise I haven't seen the numbers but virtually every Tesla sold has had some kind of rebate vs less than half of Ford's cars and trucks correct?
Correct, but not everyone qualifies for the full tax credit, and I'm almost certain that if you add up all of the money Ford received from sugar daddy uncle Sam, it would amount to a lot more many times over than what Tesla ever received.
The difference here is that Tesla has/had the means to pay back vs Ford who will likely never be able to fully satisfy their "loan" at least not anytime in the near future. It's sugar money for Ford.
They really can't. The way I understand it the laws are written such that once they have sold a single dealership they can't sell direct anywhere. Maybe they could buy back all of the dealerships, but I'm not even sure that would work. (And surely they wouldn't all sell back easily.)
Great point.
Not a great idea to buy existing gas stations to replace with electric “pumps”. Its sitting on a huge environmental liability if the tanks or plumbing ever had a leak (or will in the future if not removed).
Good point as well. I think with a proper removal of the tanks and clean up, if necessary, will be the best thing for these already existing lots. That way it solves any worries going forward, otherwise the lots would be all sitting "contained pollution" tanks, granted nothing leaks. Even if the fuel is pumped out of the tanks, it should just be removed all together.
Comparing multiplied billions in loans, which, as has been stated, are unlikely to ever be paid back in full, to tax incentives for the purchase of cars is apples and oranges. More like apples and grapes, it's much smaller. Tesla did have a government loan early on, they paid it back fully and way ahead of schedule.
Government money is one of the oldest arguments about why Tesla made it, and doesn't stand muster when you examine it closely.
I agree. Apples to a Mustard seed. Ford's actions speak for itself. They're hurting bad, losing money and clearly desperate. Slashing prices ~¢10K, offering >1.9% financing and other incentives, all in the current state of our economy? Ford is undoubtedly being carried, which honestly diminishes their reputation to those who can see what's really going on.
Maybe you're right but it's disingenuous to not show your numbers and just outright dismiss the federal backing that both companies are getting... Tesla sold what like a million cars? At $7500 back each that's like $7.5B .. I know it goes into my thought process when buying a car and I doubt I'm alone ... Could they survive without the rebate? Probably but it's still there
Not everyone qualifies for the tax incentive. Ford also has models that qualify for the tax incentive.Tesla borrows, they pay back. Ford borrows, they never pay back. We're talking about two very different scenarios here.
It would be interesting to see the detailed numbers.
The Big 7 seem to have overlooked one very important point on re creating the gas station model. With and EV I can charge at home for about 1/4 the price of the DC fast chargers. Obviously with a gas car you MUST fill up at a gas station somewhere.
Bonus I can charge at home at night while I do something else like sleep.
The Big 7 are also going to run into problems of trying to get 7 disparate companies to agree on all sorts of details. I will note that they could not even come up with a name for their network that all 7 could agree on before the press release. In fact the only detail that they did agree on was the end goal of building 30,000 stations ASAP.
Short term they might get a small number of stations up and running. Long term I predict this network will fail.
True. Charging at home is a factor that makes it hard to compare 1:1 to gas stations. This is why the Big 7 are focusing on other primary revenue streams with the model that they're building.
Network expansion is a necessity and since it will use the NACS, I don't think it'll necessarily fail. Now if it was CCS then yes, I'm sure a lot would want it to fail to rid that useless standard.
Also have to keep in mind that the rate of charging and time will only get faster. Regardless, humanoids still have to eat, stretch, use the restroom, and have breaks in general.
This is where a model such as what the Big 7 are creating benefits vs a Tesla SC in a random parking lot with nothing around. Sure there are some near food, stores and restrooms, but it's not always as convenient, especially when it's after hours and everything is closed.
I've been seeing more and more signs on business doors with a sign that says "restrooms for customers only" near Tesla SCs.
I think the Big 7's model is forward thinking and will bring some balance to keep the rates competitive. Having only Tesla SCs isn't necessarily a good thing. Monopoly = Control. Competition = Good for Consumers.
I tend to agree with you,
@KJD .
Tesla has pivoted, not sure when, but they've started partnering with companies like Meijer and Target to host their SC's in typically empty parts of their parking lots. Which I see as very smart. Most of us don't want to sit in the car while it charges.
We all know that a charging stop is currently on average much longer than a typical gas station stop. So I don't see a biz model based on gas stations working in the near future. Maybe in another 10 yrs when charging gets faster, but any stations they build now will inevitably need to be upgraded for that. I mean Tesla is already upgrading their SC's to newer tech, and will continue to need to as tech improves.
So IMO, a real workable model for this Big 7 would need to be based more on a rest stop-type format, with more activities available than just convenient store shopping.
I think that's why Tesla is trying the Bucee's model, because it is more of a destination stop first, and gas station second.
The average length of time at Bucee's is longer than a typical gas station.
And Bucee's are only located near interstates, so it's a safe bet biz-wise for Tesla to add to their network for EV owners that travel.
In my limited travels, I've mostly found Meijer to be the most convenient, but they aren't typically right off the interstates. Just close enough.
But overall, I welcome any and all NACS charging growth. As someone with Lifetime SC'ing, I'm going to stick to Tesla's network whenever possible. But it's never bad to have more options in a pinch.
Using an already existing infrastructure and destination such as Bucee's was a smart move. This may be an advantage for Tesla in going forward with this type of model since they wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.
However this plays out, it's nice to be on the consumer side, eating our popcorn and enjoying the growth. We reap the rewards and convenience.
