7 Major Automakers Band Together to build their own Network.

Interesting.

BMW, Hyundai, Mercedes, KIA, GM*, Honda and Stellantis will be building their own charging network (Non-Tesla branded), but will be using NACS, along side CCS which I think they'll eventually phase out?

If so this may indirectly confirm that the Big 7 will be adopting the NACS? (*GM already did as we know), but instead of using Tesla SCs they'll be just building their own "stations" which is smart from a business perspective so good on them. They obviously know that there is a huge piece of the pie up for grabs in an untapped free market.

It keeps Tesla from monopolizing (giving consumers more options), which is a positive thing. After all if it's NACS that's a win win.

The Big 7 plan to build 30,000 charging stations with the focus of making them more like a gas stations with the option to purchase food and snacks etc. Going into it with this intent out of the gate is much better than what Tesla did in just putting up chargers where they could without these amenities.

The new network from the Big 7 can charge all EVs so essentially this isn't necessary a bad thing for Tesla owners.

What do you guys think about this? I was curious why things were so quiet with the Big 7, while Ford and some others were quick to throw in the white flag submitting to the Tesla throne. I get it now...

Simply put, if Tesla was the Chevron, we'll now be getting a Shell, all of which we can utilize so it's just another option (network) to accommodate the future of EVs, except now it'll come with the convenience of having restrooms, food, snacks, and drinks like the old dyno juice stations.

 

[rlsd]

The effort by the 7 car companies may not be a real threat because:

1. 5, 7 years from now batteries can have higher capacity and longer range. Who need superchargers if the range is 600+ miles?
2. The 7 companies may have problem with maintaining the charging network because of the overhead and joint management costs.
3. The 7 companies may have problem with buying DC power source for the super charging stations.
4. Tesla may come up with a new charging technology and may use x.NACS with faster charging speed to compete with the 7 companies.

Too many unknown here.

 

[zroger73]

The effort by the 7 car companies may not be a real threat because:

1. 5, 7 years from now batteries can have higher capacity and longer range. Who need superchargers if the range is 600+ miles?

Even semis that hold 300 of gallons of diesel and have a 2,000-mile range still need refueling stations.

 

[brkaus]

The effort by the 7 car companies may not be a real threat because:

1. 5, 7 years from now batteries can have higher capacity and longer range. Who need superchargers if the range is 600+ miles?
2. The 7 companies may have problem with maintaining the charging network because of the overhead and joint management costs.
3. The 7 companies may have problem with buying DC power source for the super charging stations.
4. Tesla may come up with a new charging technology and may use x.NACS with faster charging speed to compete with the 7 companies.

Too many unknown here.

People that live in apartments. Unless the pay “slow” overnight charging picture changes greatly.

 

[Russell]

maybe.. do you have any numbers to back that up though?

From the Troubled Asset Relief Program ...

In 2008 GM received it's first $13.4 billion of numerous loans totaling $51 billion. Failed to payback ~$10b and still went bankrupt
In 2009 Chrysler received $10.9b, failed to payback ~$1.3b and still went bankrupt


From the DOE's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing loan program...

In 2009 Ford received $5.9b and was scheduled to pay it off in 2023. I don't know if they did as I stopped tracking it in 2020.
In 2009 Nissan received $1.45b and paid it off in 2011.
In 2010 Tesla received $465 million, paid it back in 3yrs. including the interest that would have been due if they kept the loan for the full 10yr term.

 

[PianoAl]

adding a feature where you can reserve your spot before you get to the destination.

I assume they'll control a bunch of false positives with people reserving a spot and never showing up by adding a healthy fee to those that cancel. Otherwise it would get annoying with a bunch of "maybe RSVPs." (Similar to our idle fee, but I'm all for making it a lot more potent to keep things under control.)

Yeah, that seems like a selling point that would be a disaster if implemented. Imagine pulling up and seeing two spots that are empty but reserved.

 

[gt2690b]

From the Troubled Asset Relief Program ...

In 2008 GM received it's first $13.4 billion of numerous loans totaling $51 billion. Failed to payback ~$10b and still went bankrupt
In 2009 Chrysler received $10.9b, failed to payback ~$1.3b and still went bankrupt


From the DOE's Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing loan program...

In 2009 Ford received $5.9b and was scheduled to pay it off in 2023. I don't know if they did as I stopped tracking it in 2020.
In 2009 Nissan received $1.45b and paid it off in 2011.
In 2010 Tesla received $465 million, paid it back in 3yrs. including the interest that would have been due if they kept the loan for the full 10yr term.

Nice thanks for that.. I still estimate Tesla has received 5B through state and federal incentives.. not that I'm opposed to it I mean that's why I bought my 2nd Tesla was because of the rebates

 

[zroger73]

I've only owned an EV for a few months, have very limited experience using public charging, and only know one other person with an EV.

What usually fails on public charging stations?

Both times I've been unable to charge at a public charging station appeared to be due to an internal fault with the equipment rather than the connector itself. In other words, I would have been unable to charge even if the equipment had a NACS connector instead of a J1772 connector. One of the stations displayed a red wrench icon indicating a fault with the contactors. The other station chattered as charging cut in and out before failing completely.

If most of the failures are internal and/or software related, then a NACS connector isn't going to make them any more reliable.

 

[rlsd]

I've only owned an EV for a few months, have very limited experience using public charging, and only know one other person with an EV.

What usually fails on public charging stations?

Both times I've been unable to charge at a public charging station appeared to be due to an internal fault with the equipment rather than the connector itself. In other words, I would have been unable to charge even if the equipment had a NACS connector instead of a J1772 connector. One of the stations displayed a red wrench icon indicating a fault with the contactors. The other station chattered as charging cut in and out before failing completely.

If most of the failures are internal and/or software related, then a NACS connector isn't going to make them any more reliable.

Yes. The software and the infrastructure are the keys to success.

 

[gt2690b]

Yes. The software and the infrastructure are the keys to success.

Modular Factory built chargers shipped to site on pads is hopefully a goal of the fantasy 7

 

[unk45]

Not a great idea to buy existing gas stations to replace with electric “pumps”. Its sitting on a huge environmental liability if the tanks or plumbing ever had a leak (or will in the future if not removed).

Much more relevant is that EV charging is entirely different tahnpumping petrol. With a BEV the most important feature is co-location with other likely destinations (i.e. restaurants, hotels, shops, etc) although Motorways/limited access highways stops are valuable also, but they typically have some amenities already, although rarely quite the equal of the Italian Autogrill Mozarella. Somehow it seems that many OEM's think BEV charging is exactly the same as ICE refueling.

We can only hope the Magnificent Seven can understand BEV life before they spend all that money.
This development will benefit TSLA eventually if they really do a good job with this project.

 

[unk45]

I've only owned an EV for a few months, have very limited experience using public charging, and only know one other person with an EV.

What usually fails on public charging stations?

Both times I've been unable to charge at a public charging station appeared to be due to an internal fault with the equipment rather than the connector itself. In other words, I would have been unable to charge even if the equipment had a NACS connector instead of a J1772 connector. One of the stations displayed a red wrench icon indicating a fault with the contactors. The other station chattered as charging cut in and out before failing completely.

If most of the failures are internal and/or software related, then a NACS connector isn't going to make them any more reliable.

The singular most common failure point for CCS-1, the US version, is a slim plastic retaining clip on the plug that fails constantly. All the other failures are in addition to that overwhelming one, that affects every CCS-1 charger fast or slow. According to my obsessively correct local grocer, their CCS-1 chargers fail on average twice a month. Since they have chargers in most of their stores they have a service technician with replacement in inventory. They want to switch to NACS as soon as ada[ters are widely available.

 

[brkaus]

Much more relevant is that EV charging is entirely different tahnpumping petrol. With a BEV the most important feature is co-location with other likely destinations (i.e. restaurants, hotels, shops, etc) although Motorways/limited access highways stops are valuable also, but they typically have some amenities already, although rarely quite the equal of the Italian Autogrill Mozarella. Somehow it seems that many OEM's think BEV charging is exactly the same as ICE refueling.

We can only hope the Magnificent Seven can understand BEV life before they spend all that money.
This development will benefit TSLA eventually if they really do a good job with this project.

Over time I would think it would get closer and closer to the ice experience. Of course I don’t ever see it fully catching up.

For road trip locations, I don’t see attached restaurants of much value, except if it’s fast food. Restrooms, yes.

And for charges around one’s home town, I don’t really see restrooms as being important. Safety is probably top. Maybe some other common activity like grocery shopping.

 

[unk45]

Over time I would think it would get closer and closer to the ice experience. Of course I don’t ever see it fully catching up.

For road trip locations, I don’t see attached restaurants of much value, except if it’s fast food. Restrooms, yes.

And for charges around one’s home town, I don’t really see restrooms as being important. Safety is probably top. Maybe some other common activity like grocery shopping.

Over the last ten years of EV driving I would be horrified were BEV charging to have any resemblance to the ICE experience. One of the great pleasures of BEV is the ability to plug in, then go do something else. That is why supermarkets, shopping centers and hotels are such popular places for both level 2 and fast charging. Many other people seem to share my own experience of charging while I shop for groceries, have a meal, etc. The ICE experience is 100% antiquated compared to present day BEV.

It is not attached restaurants to charging, it's charging attached to restaurants, shopping etc.
For routine local charging, the vast majority of us charge at home. For the last several years it has been easier and easier to install charging even in multi-family housing.

Tesla Superchargers and Destination chargers built that practice. It has become ubiquitous everywhere that BEV use happens. Tesla understood that eventually TSLA would benefit from that, and we now are seeing that as serious imitation is happening, which itself will rapidly aid migration to BEV. As shareholders we should see that this, built together with Tesla Energy, are eliminating traditional ICE practice.

 

[henderrj]

Maybe you're right but it's disingenuous to not show your numbers and just outright dismiss the federal backing that both companies are getting... Tesla sold what like a million cars? At $7500 back each that's like $7.5B .. I know it goes into my thought process when buying a car and I doubt I'm alone ... Could they survive without the rebate? Probably but it's still there

The original tax incentive was capped at 200,000 vehicles. Tesla has sold roughly what, a million and a half now? The next tax rebate didn't start again until this year. If so maybe a half a million here? So that makes 800,000 vehicles they sold without a tax credit.

Additionally tax credits are really just printing money. It's just the government causing inflation by reducing its income / handing out money they don't have. It's not the same thing as direct loans or grants.

But, I see your point, the rebate is helping many who buy an EV right now. Tesla's just making most of the EVS for the US, so more of their customers are getting a bigger slice of the pie - hard to imagine Tesla not benefiting from that.

 

[Elektrick]

Yeah, that seems like a selling point that would be a disaster if implemented. Imagine pulling up and seeing two spots that are empty but reserved.

That was my first thought too, which is the reason I was thinking that the only way to prevent this from happening is to have a hefty fee for wishy washers. I'm sure they'll figure out as they grow. As for any potential software glitch or delays in updating the status, that's definitely possible, but those characteristics are things that we even see with Tesla SCs. Nothing is always perfect all the time.

Our Tesla SCs aren't perfect either. I've been to several SC locations where it showed inaccurate info. Usually it'll say that there a few stalls available, I pull up and it's all full with all the cars plugged in. Some could have been at idle, but they were in the car so I doubt it.

 

[PianoAl]

That was my first thought too, which is the reason I was thinking that the only way to prevent this from happening is to have a hefty fee for wishy washers.

Yes, that's likely, but they could have the charger function only for the reservation holder or even do this:

In any case, it could be an enforcement nightmare with disgruntled customers and bad press.

 

[Elektrick]

Yes, that's likely, but they could have the charger function only for the reservation holder or even do this:

View attachment 960853
In any case, it could be an enforcement nightmare with disgruntled customers and bad press.

That pic is hilarious. I mean it's actually an option that would work, but not necessary. I'll give the benefit of the doubt that most EV drivers will be responsible about it if they know that there is a penalty attached to it. I think that it's too early to call it a nightmare, but that's just my opinion as the solutions are abundant.

I've been thinking of ways that they could implement the reservation of a charge spot. Perhaps, one method would be to only allow the option to reserve when you're X miles out from the charger, that way it would lessen the hold gap. If they don't show then ding them and have it sting.

On the other hand, what about the honest cancellations? That's the only part that may need some extra creativity without having it too complex, but the point here is that it can be done. It's not impossible. Maybe a simple points system or something.

At the end of the day, we can only speculate until the time comes; however, it's interesting being able to discuss the topic nonetheless.

 

[father_of_6]

The Big 7 are also going to run into problems of trying to get 7 disparate companies to agree on all sorts of details. I will note that they could not even come up with a name for their network that all 7 could agree on before the press release. In fact the only detail that they did agree on was the end goal of building 30,000 stations ASAP.

Yeah, I'm not sure I see the benefit of having 7 different companies involved. Is it just funding? The IRA seems to already provide that. Tesla isn't cash-flow restricted for building out superchargers.

Does anyone see a benefit to having all these companies involved? Otherwise, I'm with @KJD... too many cooks in the kitchen. Perhaps their involvement is financial only, and one of them will just hire a team of people to get the job done.

 

[MP3Mike]

Is it just funding? The IRA seems to already provide that.

The IRA doesn't fund charger installs does it? Or are you talking about the NEVI program from the BIL? The NEVI program only has enough money to fund ~17k DC fast chargers, and it is managed by the states and a bid process, so any given company/consortium isn't guaranteed to get anything. And with the late state this group has the first year of NEVI funding will likely be allocated before they get going. (Maybe not if they really plan to have chargers installed in about a year, but that timeline also makes it less likely they are planning to use NEVI funding, as the states are going really slowly. I think Ohio is the only one that has granted money so far, and most of that went to EVgo.)

 

[father_of_6]

The IRA doesn't fund charger installs does it? Or are you talking about the NEVI program from the BIL?

I haven't followed any of it that closely, but thought there were many billions from the fed available for public charging infrastructure... I assumed magic dock would allow Tesla to reap a lot of that money.