70D vs 85D comparisons are classist

[S4WRXTTCS]

When it really comes down to it, most of it comes down to personal preferences and what we're looking for.

The 85D wasn't the right choice for me because it didn't handle any better than the 70D. It also didn't brake any better than the 70D. Neither of those systems were upgraded. They are upgraded on the P85D (Edit - For the brakes at least this is incorrect. For the suspension it's unclear). Both of those systems are important to me, and I wouldn't mind spending extra money for them. I just wasn't willing to spend $25K (or whatever it is now) to get them.

When it comes to cars I strongly believe that all the systems should be balanced with one another. If it can go faster it should stop faster, and it should be able to handle cornering better.

What the 85D offered was a little more power, a little more range, and faster charging (when viewed from a miles/hour perspective).

Those are all important things and shouldn't be overlooked.

It's a great option for road-trippers, and people with families (where time might be more valuable). Will it give a better resale? Who knows? I didn't see any evidence using the Tesla Resale guarantee which I view as a worst case scenario. I know with the 70D that I am protected by that. The sad fact about these cars is we're going to be killed on resale. Partly because of incentives (the tax rebate), but also the rapid movement of technology. It's what we get for jumping so soon into the next gen. You already see it with people trading in barely used P85's for P85D's where the people getting the CPO cars are getting awesome deals. In some ways it's working just like it should to get people over to electric cars.

For myself I used the $10K savings for other things. Like after the I bought the car I bought a fancy toilet so now I don't have to wipe my butt. I got the Next Gen seats so my butt can be nicely secure and treated just right.

So in addition to gas I won't have to buy toilet paper either.

The trade off is I know it's going to take me probably one more sec to go from 30-70, and I might have to stay just a bit longer at a supercharger.

But, hey with the $10K I saved I paid off my E-Bike, paid off my Marble Electric Longboard, and bought that ridiculous toilet.

 

[kuttakamina]

So in addition to gas I won't have to buy toilet paper either.

Did you think nextgen seats were worth it? ($750 extra)
Is XPel worth it? ($1500-$2k extra)
Is the service plan worth it? ($1900 more)

I like how you think! No TP, no gas! Ultra green! You're my hero!

@Canuck - yes charge cycles do matter. But if your usage is strictly in town (< 100 mi from home), 70D will probably be OK.

 

[Max*]

I am not saying you shouldnt get a 70D, but you have to take into consideration what you give up. IMO, it is a lot and especially when the tesla is meant to replace my ICE, that extra range can and does wonders and is well worth the $10K. If the 70D was a 75D at the same price then maybe it might not be worth the upgrade to the 85D, but a 15KWh hit is significant enough anyway you see it.

It's ironic that you're willing to spend $10k on a larger battery, and at the same time waste hours supercharging it to save on electricity costs.

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Did you think nextgen seats were worth it? ($750 extra)
Is XPel worth it? ($1500-$2k extra)
Is the service plan worth it? ($1900 more)

I like how you think! No TP, no gas! Ultra green! You're my hero!

@Canuck - yes charge cycles do matter. But if your usage is strictly in town (< 100 mi from home), 70D will probably be OK.

Did you try the next gen seats?

I was eh to them, and my wife didn't like them. I think it's a reasonable cost, though.

 

[kuttakamina]

Did you try the next gen seats?
I was eh to them, and my wife didn't like them. I think it's a reasonable cost, though.

Yes I sat in both of them.
I like the "hug feel" the next gen seats give, and I think they look cooler.

But there were some downsides,

a) I think they will be uncomfortable in hot weather (I'm getting black with pano roof)
b) I think on long drives the old gen seats will be comfier (more room to move around, easy in/out of the car, arm rest accessible)
c) The older seats have a tiny pocket in the front, perfect for storing chargepoint cards, grocery stores, office access card etc. The next gen seats dont have that pocket. Given how starved the interiors are on keeping space, I think every bit matters.
d) AND, you could get these seat covers (wet okole), which add more keeping space behind your seat for the older seats. I couldn't find anything for next gen. These seat covers are 350 bucks btw.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

No one has mentioned the likely reason the 60 is gone. We know from the research that the lower state of charge that you keep a lithium battery (but not empty), the lower it will degrade. In fact, if you keep it at a low state of charge, and low temperature, it will degrade very little, even after many years. Plus, we know that higher states of charge, and higher cycles of charge, are bad for degradation. With a 60 you needed to keep it charged higher, and cycle it more, unless you're not doing a lot of driving. So the 70 makes more more sense when it comes to years down the road and that may be one of the reasons that the 60 is gone for good. Tesla may be thinking long term and not wanting a bunch of low range cars out there after accounting for battery degradation. Upping it just a bit perhaps does wonders for preventing degradation, after looking at the research much of which is relatively new. So when comparing a 70 to an 85, the 85 allows for a lower state of charge, and less cycling, making it a much better choice in the long term, especially if you plan to keep your car for many years. Plus, it's a lot quicker at Superchargers since you can pour electrons in much faster because you don't need to taper as soon as you do with a 70. Remember, folks, these batteries degrade. While you may save $10k now, new batteries are not cheap, and I doubt they will be even after the gigafactory starts producing.

What I think is most interesting about the 60 was they introduced a 60D along with the 85D, but never made any. But, within two months they suddenly came out with the 70D. So it makes me wonder what happened. Why did they introduce it only not to make any? they claim there wasn't any demand (which is true), but shouldn't they have known that before announcing it?

What you said about batteries is true, but only if you're assuming the person is going to be driving a 60 as much as they would an 85. If driven the same percentage amount they will have roughly equal degradation. The warranty on the battery pack for the 70D is the same unlimited mile warranty the 85D because Tesla knows their batteries are solid. If you wanted to drive the doors off the thing within 8 years the 70D would be a better value because Tesla has you covered.

When I got the 70D I didn't worry about battery degradation. Sure I had reasons for concern about a whole host of things, but there has been much in the way of complaints about battery degradation (aside from cars with technical issues). If I was going to keep my car my primary concern would be the reliability of the drive electronics. In 8 years the battery cost is going to be considerably lower. but, what about the motor/inverter and everything else?

So far is has been a hellishly expensive car for those unfortunate to have it outside of warranty.

If Armageddon happened your Nissan leaf would be dragging around (and being powered) via the battery from your Tesla.

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Did you think nextgen seats were worth it? ($750 extra)
Is XPel worth it? ($1500-$2k extra)
Is the service plan worth it? ($1900 more)

I like how you think! No TP, no gas! Ultra green! You're my hero!

@Canuck - yes charge cycles do matter. But if your usage is strictly in town (< 100 mi from home), 70D will probably be OK.

For me the nextgen seats were very worth it. I'm with all the others who think the default seats are embarrassing. But, I'm an Audi/Porsche kind of guy.

I don't mind the seats in my Jeep because it's a JEEP.

I'm still debating the Xpel. I have no idea. The issue is it's great for me, and will likely save me lots of bad nights (rocks hitting the car makes for a sad man). But, I know I won't be given anything from Tesla for them. Maybe I'm mistaken and maybe it will pay off. Who knows. I got the HPWC, the Chademo adapter, and the center console and my wallet is tired. I just don't want to spend anymore money.

As to the service plan if I was going to keep the car long term I'd get the service plan. So far the average Tesla owner takes their car in for service way more than once a year for issues with it. So I'm sure I'll have some reason for being there other than the service plan where they can do whatever TSB is needed.

I'll still have it serviced. My goal is once on the second year.

That's $600 I can live with.

 

[kuttakamina]

.. my wallet is tired. I just don't want to spend anymore money.

Same here :-/ .. I'm even thinking of skipping xpel and just washing it 2x a month and and waxing it 1x a month.

 

[Footer]

For myself I used the $10K savings for other things. Like after the I bought the car I bought a fancy toilet so now I don't have to wipe my butt. I got the Next Gen seats so my butt can be nicely secure and treated just right.

So in addition to gas I won't have to buy toilet paper either.

I have Coco washlets in all my bathrooms and it takes forever to dry. I don't have the patience to wait so I use a little toilet paper. I guess that's the difference between S85 and S70D mentality. :smile:

 

[travwill]

I hope Elon Musk is reading this thread, and comes to the obvious conclusion that KuttaKamina is an awesome guy and will be a great ambassador for Tesla.
And decides to give me a free P85D out of sheer decency and respect, which I would of course graciously accept.
That'd be an awesome car I think. Best car for my circumstances!

So ........ travwill, are you gonna make us beg for your wh/mi?

ha - currently it is 0 wh / 0 mi. my build & delivery is taking forever!

 

[kuttakamina]

I have Coco washlets in all my bathrooms and it takes forever to dry. I don't have the patience to wait so I use a little toilet paper. I guess that's the difference between S85 and S70D mentality. :smile:

By that definition, an ICE would be skipping wiping at all!

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ha - currently it is 0 wh / 0 mi. my build & delivery is taking forever!

Perpetual motion machine . But looking at what others are reporting, 70D is a fabulous city car, better than 85D (more efficient)

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I have Coco washlets in all my bathrooms and it takes forever to dry. I don't have the patience to wait so I use a little toilet paper. I guess that's the difference between S85 and S70D mentality. :smile:

Ha, I actually do use a little bit of toilet paper because of the whole drying thing. It takes too damn long. But, it certainly has cut down my TP use easily by 80-90%.

Just like the Tesla MS will cut down my gas use by around 90%. I'll still use my Jeep occasionally for what it's meant for.

 

[kuttakamina]

Ha, I actually do use a little bit of toilet paper because of the whole drying thing. It takes too damn long. But, it certainly has cut down my TP use easily by 80-90%.
.

^^
Go on, tell us more! We don't mind.

Anyway, saw this, Introducing the All-Wheel Drive Model S 70D | Tesla Motors, apparently Tesla claims the 70D will get 250 miles at 65mph.
That is NOT bad.

 

[A.G.]

I really don't think that the 70D is a city car. People like Kman Auto have done plenty of road trips in their 60's, and the 70 has even more. Also, by next year we should have superchargers basically everywhere, so the 70D will be an even better option. We got an 85D, but if the 70D was an option when we bought, we would have gotten that. Still love our car though.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

^^
Go on, tell us more! We don't mind.

Anyway, saw this, Introducing the All-Wheel Drive Model S 70D | Tesla Motors, apparently Tesla claims the 70D will get 250 miles at 65mph.
That is NOT bad.

Haha, the funny thing is it's fairly easy to tell people the positives and minuses of the electric cars. It's easy to tell them all the virtues of it, and why it's the future (at least the electrical part)

You can tell them exactly what excites you about the Tesla, and the experience.

But, with a Smart Toilet? It's mostly "just trust me" because it's all TMI or unpleasant conversations. People are so wrapped up in the old way of doing things (at least in the US) that they can't see why it's the future. Mine isn't nearly as advanced as I'd like it to be (it has no medical related functions like some of the really fancy Japanese ones do), but the functionality it does have has saved me from unpleasantness more than a few times a month. I did as well as I could explaining why it was so awesome on the off topic section of this Forum.

So a dude walks into Lowes, and comes out green

As to the 70D actually going 250 miles at 65MPH. Ha, I'll believe it when I see it. I can't wait to see what the real world range people get with the 70D. With the 85 I knew anything within 200 miles would be pretty easy. With the 60 I accepted that 150 was the most I would ever want to do with it (if I had ultimately got it). You always want some amount of buffer.

With the 70D I imagine it's around the 175 to 180 miles before you seriously have to stop for charging.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Personally I don't see the 10k USD as worth it. It was worth it back when the difference was 25 kWh, and you also got unlimited mileage on the battery warranty when upgrading, but now the difference is 15 kWh, and the improved warranty is included.

I take a longer trip maybe once every 3-6 months. On most of these I would need to supercharge 1-2 times, regardless of whether I would be driving an 85D or a 70D. Maybe once every 3-5 years I'll take a longer road trip, but on my road trips there's no need to stress. If I need to spend 30 minutes extra per day supercharging, that's no issue.

 

[kuttakamina]

Personally I don't see the 10k USD as worth it. It was worth it back when the difference was 25 kWh, and you also got unlimited mileage on the battery warranty when upgrading, but now the difference is 15 kWh, and the improved warranty is included.
I take a longer trip maybe once every 3-6 months. On most of these I would need to supercharge 1-2 times, regardless of whether I would be driving an 85D or a 70D. Maybe once every 3-5 years I'll take a longer road trip, but on my road trips there's no need to stress. If I need to spend 30 minutes extra per day supercharging, that's no issue.

You also have to consider that people on the west coast tend to take longer trips all the time.
Not so on the east coast. If I go to New York or Boston from DC, I would rather NOT drive there.
West coast, SF to LA - hands down, driving is better. Many many reasons for it,

- Our public transport isn't great, but theirs is non-existent
- There are simply more fun things to do in california/oregon/washington/arizona/new mexico/nevada etc. , east coast is boooooooring (except maine/vermont and florida). Esp. where I live, Washington DC, goddamned the most boring place on earth. Everyone here works for the government, and is busy filling their status reports with all the **** they didn't do in those 40 hours.
- Traffic moves much faster on the west coast (75/85mph vs 55mph).
- The drive is far nicer .. there you have redwoods, tahoe, beautiful mountains, beaches, here we have BALTIMORE.
- To add to the insult, we have to pay tolls as we enjoy the view (and smells) of Baltimorons.
- Their roads are better too, far better. Here our roads especially in the winters are like what you use in Norway to test military vehicles. Here on the east coast, even with an ICE, I wouldn't dare take a long trip when things are snowed in.

So people from the west coast are rather unsurprisingly bigtime range monkeys.

 

[Zythryn]

Everyone is different, and perhaps some people don't place the same value on $10k as others.

To me, the 70D is far, FAR more attractive a base model than the 60 it replaced.
And I do think the 70D is a great road trip car.

Roadster owners have been taking road trips with that range and without any SuperChargers for years.
Is the 80D a better road trip car? Of course, but $10k better? IMO, no.

Value is literally in the eye of the beholder. Everyone should keep that in mind, and should be thrilled with their 60, 85, P85, 70D ,85D or P85D. All are members of a wonderful family of cars!

 

[chriSharek]

OP, you're my hero.

P.S. I've said from day one that for $10k, I'll take my wife's gas SUV on road trips, assuming I need those extra 30 miles and still come out way ahead.

I couldn't disagree with this OP more.

The 85D (not the P85D, which is classist) is the perfect balance between range, performance, and cost. I'm completely with Kutta on this.

 

[TexasEV]

I have a 60 and there isn't any road trip I can't take that I could take in a 85. It's a little less convenient but not $10,000 less convenient unless you're doing it all the time. There's even less of a difference between 70D and 85D. Leafs and i3s are city cars, not Tesla 70Ds!

 

[Magus]

If I had significantly greater income I would of course get an 85D. However the 70D fits the bill for affordability and my needs. It is very capable in the supercharger areas with no sacrifice. However in areas not so well covered, or in very adverse weather the scales tip to 85D.

What Tesla can't help is that at this time functionality is built into the cost of the vehicle. Any other luxury car you generally aren't comparing function, but other a lot of other factors. What bothers me is the phallus comparison. 40 miles bonus is significant. However, calling the 70D incapable of road tripping is patently false.

What also bothers me as well as that these comparisons are also a bit ludicrous when you bring hybrid or ICE vehicles into the picture. Coming from a Prius, using a next gen Prius for a road trip is no problem. In terms time and range, well there is no comparison.

If I want to go from NY to Key West, I could do so in a 70D or an 85D. Yes, better in the 85D but both would be capable. However, if I rent a Ford Fusion Hybrid I could do it with the money saved, and it would save me a lot of time vs any 85,70, or 60. Having a hybrid, the electric is better but I'm not cognitively focused on the ICE engine.

Regardless, I would never have the time to take even a hybrid that distance. 85D customized is not affordable, 70D is still very capable in SC areas, have plenty of other travel options, and a little extra money for other things.

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Also, I already called my "classist" comparison overly dramatic.

 

[travwill]

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Also, I already called my "classist" comparison overly dramatic.

Maybe we need a new term, "Modelist" vs Classist ;-)