90D Range slowly declining

[sorka]

Until someone's willing to bite the bullet and do the "drive until completely empty" test, you can't even start to separate "bad indicator" from "actually losing range".

Yup. That's the only way to be completely sure hence my previous suggestion pages ago about driving around the block so you could push back to a charge or carrying generator that you'd run for an hour or so no more than a few miles from home so you could run out with a more flexible route.

 

[msnow]

255 in October down to 249-251 right now is normal for me based on seasonality. My latest entry (today) for 90% shows battery_range at 230.1. On October 13, battery_range was 236.64 at battery_level of 90%.

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Real drives don't necessarily fall short. In the summer I can average less Wh/mi than rated, so I get better range. Winter eats all that up though.

For me at least; seasonality, temperature whatever you want to call it has 0% to do with my displayed rated range. I live in a temperate climate and the range has not fluctuated very much between last November and now. Having said that I trust and respect the data I've seen from @FlasherZ and @MarcG which does seem to show a difference for them.

 

[sorka]

I will stop believing it's a correctable algorithm issue if Tesla doesn't come through on their written promise (to me and several others in this thread) that they are updating the software issue soon. My internal clock has that patience wearing out by the end of March. I've cycled down to 3/4% from a 100% charge two or three times with no appreciable effect.

Wait so, you nearly depleted your battery and did the total kw used since last charge jive with a 90KWh battery minus the 3 or 4% you had left?

 

[BertL]

I hate to repeat, but because this is an older and long thread, for those that are not S90 Owners with this problem or may not have read all the posts upstream -- part of the rub for those of us that paid $3K for the Range Option is the Tesla marketing materials stated that option would provide "6% additional Rated Range" over an 85kWh battery -- which equates to just over 16 miles of additional rated range we should have received. When you pay for a distinct option, at least I tend to be more focused if I received what I paid for and if it is operating as it should be.

I get all the points about RR being an estimate, not something a person can really achieve, batteries don't last forever and will naturally degrade in maximum charge they'll hold over time, yadda-yadda... but, Rated Range is something I was effectively told to look at by Tesla because of the option I purchased -- it's their measure used to sell me the option I purchased, and they calculate and present it in my MS and on the Tesla App. When owners like me see the number declining within a few days and weeks of delivery, and our precious 16 miles we specifically purchased as an option, seemingly evaporating into thin air ahead of what much longer-term owners see with 85kWh batteries in similar timeframes, that's why we're concerned. Tesla says it's not a physical battery issue, so PLEASE JUST CORRECT THE DATA YOU PRESENT YOUR OWNERS to reassure them what they purchased is as it should be, like the marketing materials said when we purchased our option. It would be a good thing for customer satisfaction, if nothing else -- and certainly reduce Tesla cost eliminating some number of owners taking time with Tesla Technical Support and at the Service Centers having to explain and put the customers at ease over and over and over...

 

[msnow]

It's my belief that until someone bites the bullet and runs it until it shuts off, charges up to 100%, and does it again to determine the full range the car thinks it has, then you won't have a good indicator. At that point, if it only achieves 250ish miles, then you'll have demonstrated that clearly it's not an indication / algorithm issue but rather a capacity issue.

If it was you, wouldn't you want to see if the firmware solves the issue before doing something like that?

 

[Beryl]

I am 2 months in and still have my original 90% rated range of 262 miles. I charge it to 90% every day, have range mode off, commute to work about 30 miles a day.

Starting at 262? Wow. My 90% started at only 257 (now at 255) but not complaining yet.

Please help me as I'm still new to this. The maximum 90% range 85D is supposedly 243 so the 90D should get 6% more ~ 257. Right?

There is an expectation that all batteries will degrade a bit but how much more are 90D batteries degrading than 85D batteries?

 

[msnow]

Wait so, you nearly depleted your battery and did the total kw used since last charge jive with a 90KWh battery minus the 3 or 4% you had left?

No. I only ran it down in those instances to test @wk057 and others research that doing so would rebalance the battery and reset or recalibrate the displayed rated range.

Heck, given wk057's recent posts on his hacking thread that the 85 kWh battery isn't really 85 kWh anyway I don't see the value in running it down to 0 not knowing what number I should be expecting.

 

[BertL]

Starting at 262? Wow. My 90% started at only 257 (now at 255) but not complaining yet.

Please help me as I'm still new to this. The maximum 90% range 85D is supposedly 243 so the 90D should get 6% more ~ 257. Right?

There is an expectation that all batteries will degrade a bit but how much more are 90D batteries degrading than 85D batteries?

Yes on the approx range.

Yes, all batteries will degrade over time. What's not known (beyond perhaps inside the labs at Tesla) is how the technology of the 90kWh batteries are similar or different with the speed and amount they change compared to the 85kWh. ALL comments here are just supposition thus far.

 

[Asciidv]

Just a bit more data. My S90D is 2 weeks old today. Battery started at 257 miles and today with a odometer reading 860 miles is down to 250 miles. Conditions in the UK are bad. Virtually all mileage has required, headlights, heater (typically 70F), heated seats, screen heater, and wipers. Outside temp. 30-40F.

Does anyone have a table of how much the accessory electrical loads consume?

 

[FlasherZ]

If it was you, wouldn't you want to see if the firmware solves the issue before doing something like that?

It depends. If I had the resources (like a good friend with a flatbed truck and a great set of backroads to drive), I wouldn't think twice about doing it for the data's sake. But if I was going to be forced to pay full towing fees downtown in a city, I would have to think twice. That's assuming I really care - and you do care, if you aren't willing to accept Tesla's statement at face value.

Until then, we have no data on which to make any conclusions whatsoever - including the primary conclusion people in this thread are jumping to, which is that the 90 kWh packs are losing real-world range because of the indication on the dash. This worry could all be hand-wringing. To some people, it's going to be a worry that affects them, to some it doesn't.

You can't just discharge to 3-4%, because you don't know if there's a 30 mile floor underneath that. You literally have to take it down to the shutdown voltage and then get it back on a charger immediately. Only then will you know if you really lost that range.

Right now, based on what I'm seeing from 85 kWh packs, I wouldn't reach any conclusions whatsoever until April/May, when the peak rated range is achieved for a given SOC level. It's dangerous to take a comparison of cold month vs. warm month and try to reach any conclusions.

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Heck, given wk057's recent posts on his hacking thread that the 85 kWh battery isn't really 85 kWh anyway I don't see the value in running it down to 0 not knowing what number I should be expecting.

That's why you have to compare the product: Your Wh/mi * your miles should roughly equal rated Wh/mi * rated miles. If it's significantly less, then you know that you suffered. But you have to do it in one continuous drive, so you don't lose power on vampire draw, while car's in park, etc.

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For me at least; seasonality, temperature whatever you want to call it has 0% to do with my displayed rated range. I live in a temperate climate and the range has not fluctuated very much between last November and now. Having said that I trust and respect the data I've seen from @FlasherZ and @MarcG which does seem to show a difference for them.

It's unfortunate, but the only direct comparisons you can really do will have to be at the one-year period, if you want to exclude any effect you might be seeing from it.

If you haven't signed up for the TeslaLogger, you might want to consider that as it will capture this data for you so that you can graph it easily.

 

[scottm]

That's why you have to compare the product: Your Wh/mi * your miles should roughly equal rated Wh/mi * rated miles.

This ^

+1


All this talk about "driving until zero".... it depends on HOW you are driving.

Put the car in a lab on rollers. Heat the lab to 20*C. All car loads turned off. Screen brightness to zero. Jamb the pedal to a constant speed position (suggest 23 MPH) and leave it there, until the car says "STOP" or just stops on its own. Record "miles traveled". Charge 100%, repeat. It will blow your mind.

 

[msnow]

It depends. If I had the resources (like a good friend with a flatbed truck and a great set of backroads to drive), I wouldn't think twice about doing it for the data's sake. But if I was going to be forced to pay full towing fees downtown in a city, I would have to think twice. That's assuming I really care - and you do care, if you aren't willing to accept Tesla's statement at face value.

Until then, we have no data on which to make any conclusions whatsoever - including the primary conclusion people in this thread are jumping to, which is that the 90 kWh packs are losing real-world range because of the indication on the dash. This worry could all be hand-wringing. To some people, it's going to be a worry that affects them, to some it doesn't.

You can't just discharge to 3-4%, because you don't know if there's a 30 mile floor underneath that. You literally have to take it down to the shutdown voltage and then get it back on a charger immediately. Only then will you know if you really lost that range.

Right now, based on what I'm seeing from 85 kWh packs, I wouldn't reach any conclusions whatsoever until April/May, when the peak rated range is achieved for a given SOC level. It's dangerous to take a comparison of cold month vs. warm month and try to reach any conclusions.

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That's why you have to compare the product: Your Wh/mi * your miles should roughly equal rated Wh/mi * rated miles. If it's significantly less, then you know that you suffered. But you have to do it in one continuous drive, so you don't lose power on vampire draw, while car's in park, etc.

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It's unfortunate, but the only direct comparisons you can really do will have to be at the one-year period, if you want to exclude any effect you might be seeing from it.

If you haven't signed up for the TeslaLogger, you might want to consider that as it will capture this data for you so that you can graph it easily.

You're right I do care but I can wait for the expected software fix. I'll admit it's the lazy way out. [emoji1]

 

[sorka]

Maybe the 90 battery is really just an 85 with the early degradation loss "headroom" being exposed to the user. Whoopsies!

And the exact same battery was going into 85's but Tesla chose to hide the early degradation. Ahhh..


Reported rated range estimates are not actuals, whoever can achieve these numbers in the real world? Nobody sane.

We're worrying about fantasy range not meeting hypothetical range, when we all know real drives falls short of either anyway.


Want to achieve your rated range? Drive slower and you will! Every time you feel ripped off, drive slower and see that for real you can actually EXCEED your rated range.


Hey! These are batteries. They're rechargeable. If you stop and charge somewhere for an extra 5 minutes... you gain all the distance back that you thought you lost. Ad infinitum.

WHO expects to drive the whole range of the car and is seriously hampered by fear or reality of "not making it" the whole distance? That is not a good match for an EV. You bought the wrong car if that's your expectation.

And the answer is not towing a trailer full of more battery just so you can not pee for 5 hours driving straight.. is not healthy. The answer is stop, charge. Then go. The SuperCharger network is your friend. Your "range" is limited by your imagination... drive forever!! Unlimited. Free charging. Free electrons. You are hauling free fuel.

Did I say FREE?

I think all that would be fine as long as it comes with a $3K refund and a promise that the range won't degrade faster than an 85 battery once it reaches that level

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Tesla says it's not a physical battery issue, so PLEASE JUST CORRECT THE DATA YOU PRESENT YOUR OWNERS to reassure them what they purchased is as it should be, like the marketing materials said when we purchased our option. It would be a good thing for customer satisfaction, if nothing else -- and certainly reduce Tesla cost eliminating some number of owners taking time with Tesla Technical Support and at the Service Centers having to explain and put the customers at ease over and over and over...

I would like to point out that if there is a problem with the battery, the software can easily be *fixed* to hide range degradation and you wouldn't know unless you ran it to empty.

 

[BertL]

...I would like to point out that if there is a problem with the battery, the software can easily be *fixed* to hide range degradation and you wouldn't know unless you ran it to empty.

Oh, yes, at least a few of us that own an S90 are way ahead of you on that point. It would be the next set of questions. But honestly at this point, I'm all about "first things first".

 

[Gremlin]

Based upon U.S Army lithium Ion battery study, talking to Carlos prior to moving from Tyson's to NY store, you should should charge between 50-70 percent. This is true especially during when its hot cold. Google the U.S. Army lithium study. Some guy in DC who has the most miles of any Tesla driver and very little batter degradation charges between only 70 miles for daily commuting. Wish I knew then what I know now, as my 90 percent for 60 is a 168 miles.

Lost 20 miles :- ( with 36K miles on my ride. I would not have gotten a 60 either due to differently chemistry and higher charging cycles. I'll upgrade the battery (whenever Tesla allows it) based upon Elon's tweet about Model S battery upgrade. Wife gave me the okay to upgrade but I'm not eating 30K of equity for an 18 month car based upon latest Tesla trade in quote.

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Based upon U.S Army lithium Ion battery study, talking to Carlos prior to moving from Tyson's to NY store, you should should charge between 50-70 percent. This is true especially during when its hot cold. Google the U.S. Army lithium study. Some guy in DC who has the most miles of any Tesla driver and very little batter degradation charges between only 70 miles for daily commuting. Wish I knew then what I know now, as my 90 percent for 60 is a 168 miles.

Lost 20 miles range :- ( with only 36K miles for Lord Raiden. I would not have gotten a 60 either due to differently chemistry and higher charging cycles. I like to upgrade the battery (whenever Tesla allows it) based upon Elon's tweet Model S battery upgrade.

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not suppose to charge the cars to 90 percent folks, based upon the U.S. Army's lithium study. 50-70 percent for daily uses. Road trip is a different story.

 

[sorka]

Starting at 262? Wow. My 90% started at only 257 (now at 255) but not complaining yet.

Please help me as I'm still new to this. The maximum 90% range 85D is supposedly 243 so the 90D should get 6% more ~ 257. Right?

There is an expectation that all batteries will degrade a bit but how much more are 90D batteries degrading than 85D batteries?

His 262 was probably with range mode on. My P85D displayed 227 at 90% with range mode off but was something like 231 with range mode on.

 

[Sparktz]

His 262 was probably with range mode on. My P85D displayed 227 at 90% with range mode off but was something like 231 with range mode on.

Range mode off. Not sure how to make the picture smaller, sorry.

 

[JRP3]

not suppose to charge the cars to 90 percent folks, based upon the U.S. Army's lithium study. 50-70 percent for daily uses. Road trip is a different story.

Did the US Army study include the cells Tesla is using? If not the conclusions are probably irrelevant.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Based upon U.S Army lithium Ion battery study, talking to Carlos prior to moving from Tyson's to NY store, you should should charge between 50-70 percent. This is true especially during when its hot cold. Google the U.S. Army lithium study. Some guy in DC who has the most miles of any Tesla driver and very little batter degradation charges between only 70 miles for daily commuting. Wish I knew then what I know now, as my 90 percent for 60 is a 168 miles.

Lost 20 miles :- ( with 36K miles on my ride. I would not have gotten a 60 either due to differently chemistry and higher charging cycles. I'll upgrade the battery (whenever Tesla allows it) based upon Elon's tweet about Model S battery upgrade. Wife gave me the okay to upgrade but I'm not eating 30K of equity for an 18 month car based upon latest Tesla trade in quote.

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Based upon U.S Army lithium Ion battery study, talking to Carlos prior to moving from Tyson's to NY store, you should should charge between 50-70 percent. This is true especially during when its hot cold. Google the U.S. Army lithium study. Some guy in DC who has the most miles of any Tesla driver and very little batter degradation charges between only 70 miles for daily commuting. Wish I knew then what I know now, as my 90 percent for 60 is a 168 miles.

Lost 20 miles range :- ( with only 36K miles for Lord Raiden. I would not have gotten a 60 either due to differently chemistry and higher charging cycles. I like to upgrade the battery (whenever Tesla allows it) based upon Elon's tweet Model S battery upgrade.

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not suppose to charge the cars to 90 percent folks, based upon the U.S. Army's lithium study. 50-70 percent for daily uses. Road trip is a different story.

Can you link the article? I googled and got a hosted of different articles, but nothing stating 50-70 percent for daily uses. Thanks!

 

[sorka]

This ^

+1


All this talk about "driving until zero".... it depends on HOW you are driving.

Put the car in a lab on rollers. Heat the lab to 20*C. All car loads turned off. Screen brightness to zero. Jamb the pedal to a constant speed position (suggest 23 MPH) and leave it there, until the car says "STOP" or just stops on its own. Record "miles traveled". Charge 100%, repeat. It will blow your mind.

No. You need to record wh / mile * miles driven to determine your usable battery capacity.