My 3 year old P85 w/ almost 38,000 miles shows 226 miles at 90%, sometimes 227. It charges to 252 miles at 100% with range mode OFF. What you are reporting seems awfully steep loss for an essentially new car.
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My 3 year old P85 w/ almost 38,000 miles shows 226 miles at 90%, sometimes 227. It charges to 252 miles at 100% with range mode OFF. What you are reporting seems awfully steep loss for an essentially new car.
Here's the comments from the SvC regarding my range issue. Although I am confident they will follow through I was hoping one of the battery experts here can explain the part in bold below.
"Tesla Description of Work"
"Concern: Customer states: When charging to 90% a full charge used to get 258 now only two months of driving is getting 251 (See Shop Service Manager)
Corrections: 12V Battery & Fuses General Diagnosis
Please inform the customer we have found nothing wrong with the hardware in this vehicle. The software range calculation for these packs is a feature new to EV's to provide accurate real time range information to the customer. This algorithm is continuously evolving and we are actively trying to improve its accuracy over every possible use case. Currently some State of Charge terminations in the middle region of the battery level may cause some range calculations that are less accurate than others but these will be fixed with upcoming over the air firmware for all vehicles."
"Tesla Description of Work"
"Concern: Customer states: When charging to 90% a full charge used to get 258 now only two months of driving is getting 251 (See Shop Service Manager)
Corrections: 12V Battery & Fuses General Diagnosis
Please inform the customer we have found nothing wrong with the hardware in this vehicle. The software range calculation for these packs is a feature new to EV's to provide accurate real time range information to the customer. This algorithm is continuously evolving and we are actively trying to improve its accuracy over every possible use case. Currently some State of Charge terminations in the middle region of the battery level may cause some range calculations that are less accurate than others but these will be fixed with upcoming over the air firmware for all vehicles."
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I'm no battery expert but I think this has something to do with it:
The discharge voltage curves of Li-manganese, Li-phosphate and NMC are very flat and 80 percent of the stored energy remains in the flat voltage profile. While this characteristic is desirable as an energy source, it presents a challenge for voltage-based fuel gauging as it only indicates full charge and low charge; the large and important middle section is difficult to estimate. Figure 1 reveals the flat voltage profile of Li-phosphate (LiFePO) batteries.
Figure 1: Discharge voltage of lithium iron phosphate
Li-phosphate has one of the flattest discharge profiles of Li-ion, making voltage estimations for SoC estimation difficult.
Measuring State-of-charge - Battery University
I think the Nissan Leaf uses lithium manganese oxide and the Model S (pre-90's) uses lithium nickel cobalt aluminium oxide but I may be wrong. Perhaps there is (more) Li-manganese and/or Li-phosphate in the 90's that is causing the middle section estimation difficulties.
All just guesses. Hopefully someone with knowledge of this issue can weigh in.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
NCA discharge curve is not as flat as LiFePO4, I don't know if the addition of small amounts of Silicon to NCA would change that curve, but I doubt it.
It sounds as if the software has trouble with partial charge/discharge cycles with the new packs. One might try a few deep discharge and full charge cycles to see if range recalculation takes place, or just wait for the software update.
It sounds as if the software has trouble with partial charge/discharge cycles with the new packs. One might try a few deep discharge and full charge cycles to see if range recalculation takes place, or just wait for the software update.
MarcG
Active Member
Thanks for posting the response from your service center. It sounds like the updated range calculations in the latest firmware versions do indeed take other factors into account, namely temperature.
This would well explain my recent drop of posted rated range due to colder than usual temperatures (stable 249-250 miles at 100% for several months down to 242 in the last 6 weeks or so) and is consistent with what my service center is telling me as well.
BertL
Active Member
Had my S90D in for a couple service items today. Provided my charge log and concern about loss of Rated Range after 2 months of ownership (see my previous posts in this thread for detail). As others have recently reported, net is, I was reassured there is no problem with my S90 battery itself; The issue is what I call a "data presentation" problem -- Rated Range just isn't being displayed properly under all conditions and requires further refinement by Tesla in future firmware release(s). There is no impact to how far I can drive or what my S90 battery pack can actually deliver. As to when the firmware updates will come to resolve some of our concerns, there is no official ETA. For those wanting the official corrective statement on my service invoice, it follows:
What was interesting to me is my SA mentioned he has had more than one customer that has complained when they've seen a single mile drop in rated range. WOW. I guess I'm just a push-over, or maybe I try to be a bit more informed and reasonable than some ...but it reminded me how happy I am retired these days, and no longer have Customer Service responsibilities needing to put on the good face and dealing with sometimes challenging customers.
I am though, still going to update my charging log until I personally see some sort of resolution after future firmware updates -- just in case.
What was interesting to me is my SA mentioned he has had more than one customer that has complained when they've seen a single mile drop in rated range. WOW. I guess I'm just a push-over, or maybe I try to be a bit more informed and reasonable than some ...but it reminded me how happy I am retired these days, and no longer have Customer Service responsibilities needing to put on the good face and dealing with sometimes challenging customers.
I am though, still going to update my charging log until I personally see some sort of resolution after future firmware updates -- just in case.
BertL
Active Member
Perhaps. At least with my pretty mild temp swings (probably not a lot different than you just north of me), I couldn't say there is any direct correlation to temp except perhaps in a very broad sense. Temp is likely a component to the challenge, but with my just two months of data, I see nothing coming close to the correlation some 85kWh owners have... and my finding Rated Range even changing within seconds up-and-down when the MS is parked and plugged-in, but not charging, is hard for anyone to explain.
I remain of the opinion Tesla's algorithms attempting to continuously estimate Rated Range are very complex, where temp is only part of the equation, and some of us with the new 90kWh battery tech are just going to have to live with these flawed algorithms until Tesla prioritizes resolving or at least beginning to improve the discrepancies. My personal hope is S90 owners seeing this drop are taking the time to officially report it, and not just grouse here on TMC... I have got to believe formal reporting will do more good to eventually cause resolution.
BertL
Active Member
I was not expecting any difference, but simply to keep this thread current: Last night I installed firmware 7.0 2.9.68 to replace 2.7.56 I've been running the last few weeks. Rated Range is reporting the same number (251) this morning after a 90% charge, just as it did with the previous firmware level day before yesterday.
But where does the driver find the rest of the capacity? We know that ideal (called typical in Norway) is a fixed number (some cars have 189Wh/km, some have 200Wh/km per typical km).
In other words, if a car shows 430tkm (typical km) the car (0,189Wh/km x 430tkm = 81,27kWh available.
When charging to 100%/430tkm and stopping at 0%/0tkm, where in the process does lost tkm reappear?
Lets say the car after a couple of months just show 415tkm at 100%. When driving to 0%/0tkm, where will the lost tkm reappear? Below zero?
The first thing I`ll do when I get the car is charge to 100% and log tkm, and how many kWh I get from 100%-0%. If range miscalculation has no effect on the battery capacity, after a few months I should be able to get the same amount of kWh out of the battery even if the range shows a lower number. Not feeling confident....
Had my S90D in for a couple service items today. Provided my charge log and concern about loss of Rated Range after 2 months of ownership (see my previous posts in this thread for detail). As others have recently reported, net is, I was reassured there is no problem with my S90 battery itself; The issue is what I call a "data presentation" problem -- Rated Range just isn't being displayed properly under all conditions and requires further refinement by Tesla in future firmware release(s). There is no impact to how far I can drive or what my S90 battery pack can actually deliver. As to when the firmware updates will come to resolve some of our concerns, there is no official ETA. For those wanting the official corrective statement on my service invoice, it follows:
What was interesting to me is my SA mentioned he has had more than one customer that has complained when they've seen a single mile drop in rated range. WOW. I guess I'm just a push-over, or maybe I try to be a bit more informed and reasonable than some ...but it reminded me how happy I am retired these days, and no longer have Customer Service responsibilities needing to put on the good face and dealing with sometimes challenging customers.
Yes thanks Bert.
Down to 242 @ 90% here in Northern California. Our ~16 miles are now totally gone...unless of course they are not really gone but just part of a "data presentation" problem!
RJ
How many kWh had you used to get to that point? The only way anyone is going to know for sure is to drive it down to 0 miles and record how many kWh were used to get there. It should be something like 81 before it hits the 0 mile buffer.
Is that number in the Trips app? I'm at 5% now what should the kWh number be at 5%?
Last charge was 90% 247 miles.
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It should be around 68 or 69 kWh but you had to have charged since your 90% since it shows 96 mils since your last charge wtih 36 kWh consumed.
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Also, it's not going to be accurate unless you pretty much do it all in one shot. Letting it sit for a long time consumes a small amount of power not counted in the meter so if you're only charging once a week and letting it sit overnight multiple nights, that will consume power. I just went skiing and it was 9F overnight and my P85D consumed 3% of the battery power to keep the battery warm. I also believe non drive train power is not counted as well so heating, cooling, lights, etc. The last time I did this with everything turned off, it was within 1% of what it should be for the battery capacity.
Now that you mention it I did accidentally start a charge for a couple of minutes so those numbers don't count.
Mike Tuccelli
Member
Interesting. At pickup Nov 12 had 90% at 256. Now, after 2,600 miles it is 258. It had gone down slowly to 251 until last week. No updates, no temperature changes, no driving modifications
No rhyme or reason.
No rhyme or reason.
BertL
Active Member
Yes, while mine has had a general decline since taking delivery, it goes up or down by 1-2 miles most days after a 90% charge, and as reported earlier, I've had it also change up and down a couple of miles within seconds of one another, one time when I happened to catch it on my Tesla App. My 40-some data points in a fairly moderate climate do not seem correlated to temperature change as some others have reported with their 85s and many more months of data with a bit more extreme temperature swings.
After a few of us 90D owners here on TMC have now reported this to Tesla, and received the same documented response, I've stopped trying to scratch my head and worry with this as much, although I still keep my log of rated range and daily temps after most overnight charges just-in-case I need the reference one day. I will also be reporting the problem again when I go in for annual service next Fall if I've seen no resolution by then. Lots of well meaning folks here can speculate whats going on, but it can also make my (and I suspect others) head spin when I am seeing this issue on my new 90D where I paid a hefty premium for additional "rated range" (or so said the marketing materials). Having been a software programmer years ago, IMHO, no one except the engineers that have access to the rated range calculation code and actual science/tech related to the battery and it's management can really know for a fact the underlying issues, and then possibly resolve the (data presentation) problem once Tesla Management prioritizes this as something to be worked on.
If this is important to you, please report it to Tesla next time you are at a SC so it's documented as an open issue on your MS. As I say, discussing here is good for the soul, but does not guarantee the concern gets to Tesla. My hope is official reporting in sufficient numbers by different owners (not just one person sending repeated cards and letters) will eventually raise this concern over others. At least in my former business, it did when my team and I prioritized our own IT investments and what needed to be worked next, having limited budget and resources as I'm sure Tesla does.
I don't have a model S but I do have a Volt and I can tell you that these range calculations vary greatly based on drivers. I bought a used volt with 20k miles on it and when I picked it up the battery said it had 24 miles on it at full charge. Now this summer I averaged 48/49 miles per charge and have about 32k on it. I think the person before me had a lead foot. I don't go above the speed limit and take care when accelerating. I noticed the range starting to go up a few weeks after I bought it.
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