A Public Letter to Mr. Musk and Tesla For The Sake Of All Tesla Driver's Safety

[mikeash]

2. Victim blaming - Pang's case, and other Tesla crashes, seems most Tesla fans are blaming the driver in 'Autopilot' cases

Um, yeah, because it's actually the driver's fault.

When a car drives off a road and into a stationary obstacle without some other vehicle crashing into it, there are really only two possibilities:

1. Mechanical failure of some kind making the car uncontrollable.
2. Driver error.

That's it! You went off the road because it was slippery? Driver error, you were going too fast for conditions. You steered incorrectly because you couldn't see? Driver error, you were going too fast for conditions. You went off the road because you were looking at something else and didn't steer? Driver error, not watching the road.

Autopilot is a driving aid and does not remove responsibility from the driver in any way. This is triply true on small, twisty roads with little margin for error where Autopilot use is not recommended.

Cars are dangerous pieces of machinery that require skill to use safely. Blaming the driver for going off the road in these circumstances is no more "victim blaming" than blaming a gun owner for shooting himself in the eye because he looked down the barrel to see if it was clear. Yes, in both cases you are technically blaming the victim, but only because they're the ones actually responsible.

Edit: I feel I should add that I'm not just blaming other people here. I've gone off the road twice, both times due to losing traction. Once was a fairly gentle event involving ice and snow, and once was a violent event caused by hydroplaning where I could have easily gotten myself and my daughter killed. It's quite tempting to blame others, especially in the hydroplaning event where I think drainage was inadequate on that section of the road. But ultimately they are both my fault: I shouldn't have been going so fast. I could try to pin the blame on VDOT, or Michelin, or General Motors, or God for making the weather crappy on those days, but ultimately it was my responsibility.

 

[RogerHScott]

Roger, so when "Pang" said "engine" and not "motor" you think that's materially important and you didn't know what he meant?

No, just the opposite. I was referring most specifically to post #158.

Additionally it's been stated upthread by the person that posted the letter plus news outlets that this letter was a translation so no I think that English not being his native language is not in dispute. If it is I'm not aware of it.

see

there's no verifiable proof that he was not English-proficient and there's a public letter that he wrote in good English in this very forum

This whole discussion is devolving into such chaos that maybe it would be best to just drop it, at least until (if) the OP responds to any
of the numerous questions raised here. I kinda suspect this was a "hit-n-run" posting where the OP never looks back.

 

[msnow]

No, just the opposite. I was referring most specifically to post #158.


see


This whole discussion is devolving into such chaos that maybe it would be best to just drop it, at least until (if) the OP responds to any
of the numerous questions raised here. I kinda suspect this was a "hit-n-run" posting where the OP never looks back.

Yes very chaotic. I must have missed the "good English" post from the real "Pang" that was pointed out by @vanguard and I'm not sure of his/her motives either.

 

[bonnie]

Well lovely. Now this thread is an article (of sorts): Model X Driver Says Tesla Drivers Are "Lab Rats" - Gas 2 I'm dismayed (but not surprised) that a clickbait title was used.

The author misses that Tesla did quickly contact the driver. And fails to note that this specific road type was not how AP was meant to be used.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

One thing I am not clear about in the Montana incident in particular which Tesla owners using AP should be able to answer I hope...

What exactly happens and at what times if you have Autopilot enabled and you take your hands off the wheel completely?
What warnings and when? When should the car start slowing and when will it stop?

I see references to "2 minutes" but it's never clearly explained.

And are any of the audible & visual warnings or time delays configurable or are they fixed by Tesla?

 

[ohmman]

You guys can flog me all you want, but I personally vote for geofencing AP and excluding two lane, undivided roads (for now). It shouldn't be used there anyway, so owners won't be losing any supported functionality. And it'll keep this kind of nonsense from occurring.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I thought the very question of whether the OP's native language was English or not was in dispute? And here you are assuming it as
fact? Making fun (in other than a goodnatured way) is always inappropriate, regardless of the specifics, but criticizing language use
when it materially affects what is being said is legitimate. That said, most of the specifics cited above from the OP's letter are nothing
more than nits that any reasonable person can read right through with zero chance of misunderstanding.

I think it is pretty much settled Mr. Pang's native language is not English. The direct OP however is not Mr. Pang, but appears to be his friend and the letter appears to be written/translated by this friend:
Note the title:
"A Public Letter to Mr. Musk and Tesla For The Sake Of All Tesla Driver's Safety
From my friend, Mr. Pang, a survivor of the Montana Tesla autopilot crash"

Other bits of evidence that Mr. Pang isn't a native English speaker:
1) From the original post by his friend talking about the accident, Mr. Pang's iPhone screenshot showing his location was all in Chinese.
2) An interview said that Mr. Pang noted he understood only Mandarin and didn't understand the English warnings in the car.
3) Tesla's recent statement said that they had to talk through a translator to communicate with Mr. Pang the morning after the accident, and had to find an employee that understood Mandarin to further contact him later on (reaching only his wife).

 

[Cobbler]

1) Can't Tesla remotely disable Autopilot on that particular road using gps? Since the road condictions are not sufficient for it to work.

2) (If I was Elon, I would've made Autopilot in combination with a required dashcam running in sync with the AP, this could benefit both Tesla and the driver)

 

[mikeash]

What exactly happens and at what times if you have Autopilot enabled and you take your hands off the wheel completely?
What warnings and when? When should the car start slowing and when will it stop?

I see references to "2 minutes" but it's never clearly explained.

And are any of the audible & visual warnings or time delays configurable or are they fixed by Tesla?

There is no set timeframe and there is no configurability. The car has an internal "confidence" measure, which sums up how well the car thinks it can handle conditions. Things like sharp curves or badly painted lines will drop that "confidence." When it drops below a certain threshold, the car will ask you to place your hands on the wheel. If you don't, the car will escalate over the next 10-15 seconds, culminating in a big red "take over immediately" warning, with a loud beeping noise, and if you still don't take over then the car will automatically turn on the hazard lights and stop. If confidence drops far and quickly enough, the initial warnings will be skipped and it'll go straight to "take over immediately."

There's a lot of confusion about this, partly because it's just not made clear, and partly because it changes from version to version. For a while it appeared there was even a strict timer of 3-5 minutes in addition to the rest, but that seems to have been removed.

As far as disabling Autopilot on two-lane undivided roads, I vote strongly against. Autopilot is still extremely useful (and IMO perfectly safe) on such roads if used with care. There are many such roads where I feel much safer with Autopilot engaged than without, and it still greatly reduces fatigue. I do not take Autopilot as an excuse to space out, stare at clouds, or play with my phone, however.

 

[commasign]

I'd like to see some sort of confidence meter for autopilot such that yes, we can use autopilot wherever we want, but autopilot should give us an indication of how it sees the road conditions.

Green = clear lane markings, up to date lane specific maps, no cross-traffic, etc.,.
Yellow = clear lane markings but no recent lane specific GPS data, some stop lights/stop signs/cross traffic, etc.,
Red = some lane markings but not ideal due to time of day (glare) or just poor lane markings, no lane specific GPS data, stop lights/stop signs, cross traffic

Yellow would have more frequent "hold steering wheel" prompts. Red even more so.

I guess the danger would be that someone sees green and decides to read a book or take a nap.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

There is no set timeframe and there is no configurability. The car has an internal "confidence" measure, which sums up how well the car thinks it can handle conditions. Things like sharp curves or badly painted lines will drop that "confidence." When it drops below a certain threshold, the car will ask you to place your hands on the wheel. If you don't, the car will escalate over the next 10-15 seconds, culminating in a big red "take over immediately" warning, with a loud beeping noise, and if you still don't take over then the car will automatically turn on the hazard lights and stop. If confidence drops far and quickly enough, the initial warnings will be skipped and it'll go straight to "take over immediately."

There's a lot of confusion about this, partly because it's just not made clear, and partly because it changes from version to version. For a while it appeared there was even a strict timer of 3-5 minutes in addition to the rest, but that seems to have been removed.

Ah OK, so the 2 minute thing is a bit of a red herring? Does this mean that if AP considers conditions are good, you can take your hands off the wheel for as long as you want without triggering the audible alerts/slowing etc.?

On the other hand (no pun intended) if you've had AP enabled for a while on a 'good' road but suddenly conditions drop below the threshold and your hands are off the wheel, the car could be automatically slowed within just a few seconds?

There are many such roads where I feel much safer with Autopilot engaged than without,

Can you expand on that? I'm really interested to know how you could feel safer on certain roads, ignoring the fatigue and boredom elements when on long straight stretches of Interstate, for instance.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'd like to see some sort of confidence meter for autopilot such that yes, we can use autopilot wherever we want, but autopilot should give us an indication of how it sees the road conditions.

Green = clear lane markings, up to date lane specific maps, no cross-traffic, etc.,.
Yellow = clear lane markings but no recent lane specific GPS data, some stop lights/stop signs/cross traffic, etc.,
Red = some lane markings but not ideal due to time of day (glare) or just poor lane markings, no lane specific GPS data, stop lights/stop signs, cross traffic

Yellow would have more frequent "hold steering wheel" prompts. Red even more so.

I guess the danger would be that someone sees green and decides to read a book or take a nap.

I remember someone bringing up colorblindness so whatever scheme used should account for that.

You make a good point that such "grading" will give a false expectation about the effectiveness of the system. The driver should be paying attention all the time, but different levels suggests that there are different levels of attention that is required. I'm willing to bet there will be a driver that says that the system said it was green, get into an accident, and then blame it for doing so.

Personally, what I suggest is that to activate autopilot, rather than that short message and a confirmation button, they should put all the content of the manual related to the autopilot there to read. Then quiz the user about the content and only activate if the user passes the quiz with no wrong answers. It's kind of sad that things have to go to this extreme, but it may be necessary given people apparently don't like to take responsibility.

As for the activation of the system on undivided roads, I think Tesla can add a further confirmation, but like others I don't feel it should be disabled completely.

 

[Max*]

On the other hand (no pun intended) if you've had AP enabled for a while on a 'good' road but suddenly conditions drop below the threshold and your hands are off the wheel, the car could be automatically slowed within just a few seconds?

That's not exactly how it works.

When the red-hands-of-death appear, AP is confused and you're own your own. The car will not continue to follow a straight line, you better take over steering, or you will crash. I've never tried waiting to see how long it takes to slow down.

Now, the other part of where this is not exactly how it works. Once you go through the stages (keep hands on wheel visual IC only, keep hands on wheel with beeping, etc.) then it starts to slow you down. But you can drive for a LOT more than 2 seconds after the last message before it starts to slow you down.

 

[RogerHScott]

Does this mean that if AP considers conditions are good, you can take your hands off the wheel for as long as you want without triggering the audible alerts/slowing etc.?

I don't know about "as long as you want", but certainly for much more than two minutes. Driving on straight interstates it can be many
minutes -- I've never actually had conditions be ideal long enough to know what the upper bound actually is. Note: my hands were
very near the wheel, and I was paying full attention to driving.

 

[kirkbauer]

True, but that can't explain how one could think the motor was spinning fast while the wheels were stationary. That thinking points to some serious misunderstanding of what happened in this incident; who know what other kinds of misinterpretation there was?

I really think it must have been the A/C fan he was hearing which can get really loud.

 

[mikeash]

Ah OK, so the 2 minute thing is a bit of a red herring? Does this mean that if AP considers conditions are good, you can take your hands off the wheel for as long as you want without triggering the audible alerts/slowing etc.?

On the other hand (no pun intended) if you've had AP enabled for a while on a 'good' road but suddenly conditions drop below the threshold and your hands are off the wheel, the car could be automatically slowed within just a few seconds?

Can you expand on that? I'm really interested to know how you could feel safer on certain roads, ignoring the fatigue and boredom elements when on long straight stretches of Interstate, for instance.

The two minute thing is a red herring, although there is some basis in it from the older versions that did have a 3-5 minute timer.

And yes, it's possible to immediately go to Red Alert and start slowing the car. There's a local road near my house with an intersection on a curve which makes Autopilot do this, because it completely loses track of the lane markings. (I have tested this while extremely vigilant, hands on the wheel, ready to take over, and with no other traffic around, of course.)

As for feeling safer, when I think of two-lane roads and Autopilot, I think of my occasional drives to the Delaware beaches. There are no major highways across the Delmarva peninsula for that route, so it's little roads the whole way. Driving myself, I'd have momentary lapses of attention or drift. Autopilot backs me up and fills in those gaps. Likewise, Autopilot has momentary lapses, and I back it up and fill in those gaps. Fatigue is also a big factor, since it's a pretty long and stressful drive (especially coming back home at night, after a long day at the beach, trying to see the road past everybody's headlights) and having Autopilot take care of the mundane steering makes it a lot less tiring.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

OK, interesting. I'm even more curious to see Naonak's video now.

I guess we already know that Autosteer could suddenly and incorrectly change direction based on confusing what the cameras/radar 'see' and without giving any warnings beforehand. It would have to be able to do that in order to avoid a collision if someone or something unexpectedly moved into the path of the car.

I'm back to wondering whether it's possible for a Tesla driver to look ahead at a change in the road surface, markings, street furniture etc. and be able to predict that AP will be confused by it enough to react unpredictably.

 

[kirkbauer]

What most people seem to be missing is the shoulder situation if this picture is really indicative of the road on which this happened:

If AutoPilot was to go about 6" past the right white line, it looks like the tire would "roll" off of the edge and then quickly hit the poles. It is certainly possible for AP to go over the line by a few inches especially when traveling at high speeds through curves. So I definitely believe that AP might have done that, and then "veered right" as the OP described is what happened when the tire rolled off of the asphalt.

I was recently on a very similar road and I wouldn't use AP even with both of my hands on the wheel and my eyes on the road. You just don't have enough time to react to going off of that edge on the right (or into oncoming traffic on the left). And I use AP all the time, just not in this situation. If there was a shoulder then sure.

 

[sillydriver]

What most people seem to be missing is the shoulder situation if this picture is really indicative of the road on which this happened:

If AutoPilot was to go about 6" past the right white line, it looks like the tire would "roll" off of the edge and then quickly hit the poles. It is certainly possible for AP to go over the line by a few inches especially when traveling at high speeds through curves. So I definitely believe that AP might have done that, and then "veered right" as the OP described is what happened when the tire rolled off of the asphalt.

I was recently on a very similar road and I wouldn't use AP even with both of my hands on the wheel and my eyes on the road. You just don't have enough time to react to going off of that edge on the right (or into oncoming traffic on the left). And I use AP all the time, just not in this situation. If there was a shoulder then sure.

Completely agree -- see post

#119

The country road I live on is like this one by having no shoulder. It falls off into drainage ditches along most of its length, which is a problem if you put a tire over the edge. I never use AP on that road.

 

[3Victoria]

And I certainly would not be going over the speed limit at night.