bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
My thought is that the thoughts of those who have the most invested in the community should carry the most weight. But it's all a moot point. For me, anyway.
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My thought is that the thoughts of those who have the most invested in the community should carry the most weight. But it's all a moot point. For me, anyway.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Right, but whichever why they vote in a poll, wouldn't the results be heavily skewed because of the pre-selection of the members?
If they vote to keep the restrictions in place, we could just say "well, that's because you polled the people who have more invested in the community".
If you're serious about doing a poll, poll a random cross section of the community which won't skew the results one way or the other. You want to remove any factors that might influence the outcome (i.e. pre-selecting the population). That's not good science.
To reaffirm what Bonnie said, limiting the editing was under discussion for some time before it was instituted. We've had problems on a regular basis. One member can make a LOT of work for the admins. Moderators can't clean up the big messes.
There are possible technical solutions but they require modifying the forum software, which is a big job.
There are possible technical solutions but they require modifying the forum software, which is a big job.
spaceballs
Member
Doubt it be a big job with the right person who has experience.
Looks like this site is running vBulletin 4.2.2
looks like V5 is out..
I recommend mods ask in http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/ to see if new features exist, or asking if running custom queries is possible.
Ok looks like you can run custom queries i.e. --> vBulletin Manual - Execute SQL Query
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I doubt you were trying to be rude ... was this your way of volunteering your time?
spaceballs
Member
Finding the right person with experience with vBulletin to run a custom query that executes what I suggested earlier shouldn't be hard. In fact I'm sure it's already be done before by someone, just it will take someone some time digging around at vBullentin fourms to find out and then apply it to TMC. I might have time to help a little on this in a month or so, but right at the moment no.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I agree with spaceballs. No software modifications are necessary.. there are thousands of free vBulletin add-on products and plug-ins that automate all kinds of admin and mod tasks... they are very easy to install and again, no software changes are necessary. I own and administer a vBulletin 4.2.2 site with 4.2 million posts and 20k+ members (although somewhat less traffic than TMC these day). There are automated ways to ban a user, and optionally delete or hide all their posts before/after a certain date, etc. No real direct SQL queries are necessary (and are actually quite complicated and you have to know the vBulletin schema really well in order to construct a query to do what you want without causing collateral damage).
I think it's easy for the mods to say "you don't know how much work it is".. and for the most part, that's true. But I *do* know how much work it is to clean up forums/bad users... and as much (or as little) that is, it's nothing compared to the massive complaint-storm (in nice terms) I'd have if I removed the ability for my users to edit posts.
But the mods have spoken. I've said my peace. So I guess there's nothing left to do, unfortunately. The users can now vote with their feet (err, clicks).
spaceballs
Member
I found a list of plugins that should work with this version of the forums at vBulletin 4.x Add-ons - vBulletin.org Forum
If I were a mod, this be the list of plugs I start wading though to find a solution.
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I assume vBulletin schema DB would be pretty bad, but I've worked on bigger ones. There are techniques to verify if collateral damage happens during testing (for the most part). Anyways not much else to say, there are people in the know that can do this, just either need find them or find an existing plugin that meets the same need.
If I were a mod, this be the list of plugs I start wading though to find a solution.
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I assume vBulletin schema DB would be pretty bad, but I've worked on bigger ones. There are techniques to verify if collateral damage happens during testing (for the most part). Anyways not much else to say, there are people in the know that can do this, just either need find them or find an existing plugin that meets the same need.
vBulletin v5 is not a great option. In many ways v4 is better.
Lots of things are possible; however, everything together is a lot of work. You're getting a lot for your money here. ;-)
Lots of things are possible; however, everything together is a lot of work. You're getting a lot for your money here. ;-)
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Again, I see what you did there.
Or, how about asking 'What is a reasonable length of time that you think you should be able to edit your posts?' Might get a totally different answer then. Because your question excludes any editing capability, mine assumes there is a reasonable length of time. Neither would be fair and get to the right answer.
I'd start by polling the people who have actually contributed to the site (See "Supporting Members" at Show Groups - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum) and get their opinion.
I've gone ahead and become a Supporting Member (been meaning to). Not sure where my support ranks, but, I'd like to think it is enough to maybe throw a few pieces of kindling on this fire. :biggrin:
Best of luck with the solution.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I'm a constant editor but only in the first 5 minutes or so after I write my post. I guess there's some time limit there before it says something like: Last Edited by Canuck; Today at 08:22 PM. That's what I rush to beat. What's the rule on when that appears?
By the next day, my post is usually buried or out of my mind, and I can only find it from going to my profile and following it up. I agree with the "too late" to edit if it makes it easier for the mods, even though sometime I cringe at what I wrote and want to change it, or YIKES! -> I see some glaring grammatical error. I guess for someone who suffers from OCD it must be really bad not to be able to edit, but otherwise, who gives a youknowwhat if we can't edit our posts the next day. We're not even using our real names! (Well, most of us anyways.)
With regard to contributions, this is news to me. I never even knew there was a contributing section. How much are people contributing and why? Now, don't jump all over me with the "why?" part, but in my opinion, no one should ask for money unless financials are disclosed or obvious. I take that back, anyone can ask for money whenever or for whatever they want. I just don't like to contribute to anyone unless I know it's needed. I see this site ranks:
Edit. Cutting and pasting the ranking made a mess. It reads: PR Quality:Very Strong You can see all the rankings here: PageRank Checker - Instantly Check Google PageRank!
If the site is making money off advertising, then perhaps I, and other "senior members" , (in fact, everyone posting here for the many "guests" to read - drawing clicks to this site) are what makes this site what it is and draws in the advertising? Isn't that a "contributing member" too? But perhaps this site is losing money? Or, perhaps a lot of unpaid work goes into this site by the owner (who I assume gets this money) and contributing helps out him/her who is very deserving of the same? Maybe I just missed the disclosed financials? So many questions! If the financials are kept private, I understand completely. But if that's the case, I'd rather up my monthly contribution to the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society than offer funds here, because I just don't know if my funds are going to increase revenues for an already profitable website, although there's certainty nothing wrong with that.
By the next day, my post is usually buried or out of my mind, and I can only find it from going to my profile and following it up. I agree with the "too late" to edit if it makes it easier for the mods, even though sometime I cringe at what I wrote and want to change it, or YIKES! -> I see some glaring grammatical error. I guess for someone who suffers from OCD it must be really bad not to be able to edit, but otherwise, who gives a youknowwhat if we can't edit our posts the next day. We're not even using our real names! (Well, most of us anyways.)
With regard to contributions, this is news to me. I never even knew there was a contributing section. How much are people contributing and why? Now, don't jump all over me with the "why?" part, but in my opinion, no one should ask for money unless financials are disclosed or obvious. I take that back, anyone can ask for money whenever or for whatever they want. I just don't like to contribute to anyone unless I know it's needed. I see this site ranks:
Edit. Cutting and pasting the ranking made a mess. It reads: PR Quality:Very Strong You can see all the rankings here: PageRank Checker - Instantly Check Google PageRank!
If the site is making money off advertising, then perhaps I, and other "senior members"
, (in fact, everyone posting here for the many "guests" to read - drawing clicks to this site) are what makes this site what it is and draws in the advertising? Isn't that a "contributing member" too? But perhaps this site is losing money? Or, perhaps a lot of unpaid work goes into this site by the owner (who I assume gets this money) and contributing helps out him/her who is very deserving of the same? Maybe I just missed the disclosed financials? So many questions! If the financials are kept private, I understand completely. But if that's the case, I'd rather up my monthly contribution to the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society than offer funds here, because I just don't know if my funds are going to increase revenues for an already profitable website, although there's certainty nothing wrong with that.
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I'm a constant editor but only in the first 5 minutes or so after I write my post. I guess there's some time limit there before it says something like: Last Edited by Canuck; Today at 06:14 PM. That's what I rush to beat. What's the rule on when that appears?
By the next day, my post is usually buried or out of my mind, and I can only find it from going to my profile and following it up. I agree with the "too late" to edit if it makes it easier for the mods, even though sometime I cringe at what I wrote and want to change it, or YIKES! -> I see some glaring grammatical error. I guess for someone who suffers from OCD it must be really bad not to be able to edit, but otherwise, who gives a youknowwhat if we can't edit our posts the next day. We're not even using our real names! (Well, most of us anyways.)
With regard to contributions, this is news to me. I never even knew there was a contributing section. How much are people contributing and why? Now, don't jump all over me with the "why?" part, but in my opinion, no one should ask for money unless financials are disclosed or obvious. I take that back, anyone can ask for money whenever or for whatever they want. I just don't like to contribute to anyone unless I know it's needed. I see this site ranks:
Edit. Cutting and pasting the ranking made a mess. It reads: PR Quality:Very Strong You can see all the rankings here: PageRank Checker - Instantly Check Google PageRank!
If the site is making money off advertising, then perhaps I, and other "senior members"
Since no one is demanding funds, you're probably not going to get a financial disclosure. But the reality is the majority of the work on the site is volunteer work, servers cost money, so do licenses, and while yes there are ads - most people use AdBlock (meaning no revenue from ads).
If I use a site and get value from it, I contribute. I've donated thousands of moderating hours to TMC and still donated financially. I'm not sure where else you think the money is coming from. Again, no one is twisting your arm to donate.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I thought the money was only from advertising. I didn't even think there would be any other sources. The contributions surprised me. This is not my area of expertise by any means. In fact, I don't even know anything about adblock and I don't know anyone who uses it, and I do know many people who use computers. I guess I should look into it if most people are using it. That's certainly news to me. I am also obviously naive when it comes to how website forums like this make money. I took it as a given that the owner was making good money from us just posting, because my only knowledge comes from listening to Howard Stern and the guy who made his fan forum (not the official site) said at one time he was offered $1M for the site. So I guess I wrongly assumed that these sites are making money and are worth some good money. I know Stern is more popular than Tesla, but not for long I bet, so I thought the owner was sitting on a gold mine here. That just shows you how much I know, if what you are telling me is that this site is losing money.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
They definitely would be losing money without all the volunteer hours. What a site is worth doesn't translate to revenue today. (Just ask Tesla
)
No one has stepped up yet with a solution to my problem. There are ways to make certain members have the ability to do this while the rest cannot; I know TMC uses groups because that's how negative reputation continued for some members. And if those certain members are within a particular group and they *&#* it up, then take it away. It is not that hard!
Yes, moderators do a lot for the forum. But so do the members, because without the members it's an echo chamber for the system administrator. It's frustrating to give what I give to the forum and feel like the moderators think I'm going to go bat-crap insane such that it's an irreversible problem. I really don't see just what the problem is here. And it's frustrating because no one who has the ability to do something will engage in a human conversation with me about it.
Yes, that's how I've been made to feel about it, and the continuous ignoring of the questions I've asked about how I can do it just frustrates me more. So moderators, please talk to me offline or something.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Ok, how about this? (Based on FlasherZ's comments): Create a usergroup that inherits all the permissions of "Registered Users", but adds the ability to edit posts without a time limit (the "normal" way most forums operate).
Then any user that wants this ability can make a request of the mods or admin to be added to this secondary group.
Then if any of these users then exploits or takes advantage of their ability to edit posts, they will be moved to another usergroup that strips them the ability to edit posts altogether (i.e. zero time limit).
This way, new users can't blast onto the forum and cause problems like we witnessed before.. yet existing and trusted members are not restricted from maintaining their significant contributions to the site.
It would take about 1 minute to create these two usergroups.
My point here is that in order to make the most vocal users happy and grant them this permission, it's going to require quite a bit of work on the mods or admins to individually assign each user to this secondary usergroup as the users make these requests.
And I would assert, that that time needed is going to be significantly MORE THAN the time required to fix up a messed up thread every other month or so under the old policy.
Then any user that wants this ability can make a request of the mods or admin to be added to this secondary group.
Then if any of these users then exploits or takes advantage of their ability to edit posts, they will be moved to another usergroup that strips them the ability to edit posts altogether (i.e. zero time limit).
This way, new users can't blast onto the forum and cause problems like we witnessed before.. yet existing and trusted members are not restricted from maintaining their significant contributions to the site.
It would take about 1 minute to create these two usergroups.
My point here is that in order to make the most vocal users happy and grant them this permission, it's going to require quite a bit of work on the mods or admins to individually assign each user to this secondary usergroup as the users make these requests.
And I would assert, that that time needed is going to be significantly MORE THAN the time required to fix up a messed up thread every other month or so under the old policy.
Your contributions to this forum are significant, and very welcome and appreciated... but that doesn't mean you're entitled to special treatment. There are thousands of people on this forum, and a very small number of people working to control the chaos.
The volunteer moderators are entirely powerless in this. We can't make changes to the board software or its configuration; we do not have that level of access. We don't set the policies, although we do offer input.
You can talk to one of the admins / site owners, but they (especially doug) are extremely busy people. They are constantly dealing with all kinds of things behind the scenes - handling problems (spammers, sock puppets, etc. are a constant battle), organizing TMC Connect, managing sponsors, fixing technical problems, all kinds of things. Their job is to keep this forum running as best they can manage, and they are pedaling as fast as they can to do that.
Everything is a compromise; we cannot make everyone happy. Everyone is trying to do their best. I'd hope we'd have your support in that.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised anyone wants to be a moderator here with all the crap they have to put up with by members. I see that Bonnie is no longer one and that's only a week after Nigel left. I appreciate all that you do here, Doug. Like Nigel and Bonnie were as mods, you are fair and reasonable. If you also go, it would be too bad and a great loss, but I'd certainly understand.
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