dbldwn02
Active Member
You have FSD Beta and stock in TSLA. Other than to troll, why are you here? You know, no one in this thread is going to agree with you.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?
- Thread starter Nuclear Fusion
- Start date
powertoold
Active Member
I don't think people here have the right interpretation of the fsd package.
It may turn out that Tesla provides level 4 with the fsd package, but I don't think they're legally obligated to. "Level 4" has never been mentioned in the fsd description.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
What is your interpretation of this? Sounds like robotaxi to me. It doesn't have to be SAE L4 to be a robotaxi in many states though it does in California where most Teslas are sold.
Tesomega
Member
That means nothing for Regulatory approval.. let me see what regulators say when they submit this....
powertoold
Active Member
You're right. I think the people who bought fsd with that particular description should get their money back at some point, if Tesla never delivers on the ride hailing for friends and family part.
L4 has never been mentioned in the FSD description, but what they have described very much fits the L4 description.
"All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat."
Almost all circumstances = L4 ODD
No action required by the person in the driver's seat = L4 or greater
To me that's the obvious goal, but then they say:
"The future use of these features without supervision is dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving capabilities are introduced, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software update"
Which means its L2 until those two conditions are satisfied.
I agree that most buyers of FSD don't know exactly what they've even been promised. There are too many discrepancies between what Elon tweets (as an official spokesperson for Tesla), and what Tesla has on their website. It also went through a major change back in 2019 in what was included within the FSD package.
Whether L4+ was promised or not is almost completely irrelevant. It is because there was never a promised date.
The FTC really needs to get themselves involved if only to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. It's basically a pre-order that failed to deliver what the pre-order said it would.
dbldwn02
Active Member
Pretty much what I've been saying for the past 5 posts.
But they also said ride hailing on the "Tesla Network" whatever that is.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Practically speaking I have no idea but there are a lot of SAE J3016 haters around here who I'm sure could come up with something. haha. Maybe you could still achieve acceptable safety without automatically achieving minimal risk condition in the event of system failure?
@EVNow @powertoold?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Since SAE levels are not “hierarchical” L4 or greater makes no sense
True, and I don't even believe in L5 so there wasn't really a need to say greater.Since SAE levels are not “hierarchical” L4 or greater makes no sense
My point was that a vehicle could not go to pick up the ride share customer without the vehicle being L4.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, it's not (for the pre March 2019 buyers anyway)
FSDBeta is, explicitly, an L2 system.
Except, it has. It's been quoted to you several times now. The car can't conduct trips without ANY action by the person in the drivers seat unless it's at least L4.
People keep saying that- and AFAIK nobody has successfully sued for an FSD refund yet.
Weird.
No, they have not.
They've been delivering an unfinished early beta to a tiny fraction of their owners in one specific country of the dozens they sell cars in. And made it clear it's only an L2 system, does not work reliably, and will be undergoing at least 1 or more major rewrites before wide release is considered.
Tesla has delivered the promised (pre 3/19) FSD functionality to zero owners so far.
This is flat out untrue.
Nobody with MCU1 was promised early access to pre-wide-release testing software.
Why?
Until they actually have working FSD- as defined when it was sold to those MCU1 owners- they have no way to know how to deliver it to them.
They can't know if they'll need an MCU upgrade or not if they don't have the actual solution figured out yet. Maybe it'll end up fine on MCU1, maybe it won't. Can't know till the solution exists though.
Currently it does not.
I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
Again, until they have a WORKING FSD solution (the FSD deliverable MCU1 owners were promised, not the newer L2 version being sold) they can't give you a date.
The plan on how to achieve it has changed- multiple times- and is changing at least one more time we know of. It might change again in the future.
Nobody can tell you when they'll be done with a thing nobody has ever done before and they still don't have a working solution for.
powertoold
Active Member
Not true. "No action required by the person in the driver's seat" can have multiple interpretations.
If Tesla meant level 4, they would say so. If they meant you can sleep in the car, they would say so (in the description), etc.
The fsd description is open to interpretation, and Tesla can just say, "oh, we meant...".
Even the ride hailing part can be interpreted as, "you can use the fsd feature for ride hailing, but you still need to be in the driver's seat." Lol
More: Tesla fsd description never mentions "driverless" or that no one needs to be in the car. In fact, they explicitly say that someone needs to be in the driver's seat.
Last edited:
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It really can't. I mean, not using the actual meanings of those words it can't.
All levels below 4 require a human in the driver seat to actively do something
Therefore if their system requires no action it must be L4 or higher.
There is no reading of L0 through L3 where no action is ever required of the person in the seat. Thus they can not be describing any of those levels.
By definition.
I'm confused by why you mention this when people have posted about the whole Tesla Robotaxi thing.
You know that was a big part of why people thought of FSD as L4. It simply wouldn't work without being L4.
powertoold
Active Member
No, level 4 allows for driverless. Show us where in the fsd description Tesla says there's no driver needed (or even no one in the car).
The fsd description even mentions someone being in the driver's seat.
Once again, it's open to interpretation. I can see what y'all are saying, but your interpretation isn't the only one.
A soccer coach does no action as it relates to playing soccer. However, the coach supervises and can take action if needed. This is a stupid example, but you see what I'm saying.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
You are confusing 2 different things.
L4 "allows" driverless.
It does not require an empty drivers seat.
Sitting a human in the drivers seat of an L4 car does not mean it's not L4 any more.
Do you know what DOES mean it's not L4? Requiring action from the human.
Any level below L4 requires action from a human
Teslas FSD definition says no action is required by the human
Thus, by definition, their system must be L4 or better
Because it'll never require human action.
That's only true of L4 and L5
This is not subject to interpretation, it's the literal definitions in the SAE doc.
Supervising is an action.
And obvously "take action if needed" means action might be needed
Again- Tesla says no action will be needed by the human.
Which, again, ONLY is true of L4 and L5.
L3 and below always require SOME action by the human.
powertoold
Active Member
I'm not confusing anything. I understand the levels better than most here. I'm not gonna go through this levels discussion again lol.
It wasn't long ago people here, including you, thought level 5 was some feature that can do anything a human can.
I just think it's silly that you think your interpretation of the fsd description is the only right one. My pov is that I can see what you and others are saying, but it's open to interpretation.
Last edited:
Similar threads
