After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[Daniel in SD]

I'm not confusing anything. I understand the levels better than most here. I'm not gonna go through this levels discussion again lol.

It wasn't long ago people here, including you, thought level 5 was some feature that can do anything a human can.

I just think it's silly that you think your interpretation of the fsd description is the only right one. My pov is that I can see what you and others are saying, but it's open to interpretation.

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable so say that no action is required*
*but if you take no action you will be criminally liable.
That interpretation makes sense. haha

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I just think it's silly that you think your interpretation of the fsd description is the only right one. My pov is that I can see what you and others are saying, but it's open to interpretation.

Why would we limit our interpretation of FSD to just the FSD description? Does Elons statements not count? Both his statements in the introduction to FSD back in 2016, and in all his tweets?

Do we ignore everything said about the Tesla Robotaxi fleet, and how we could make money off our Tesla's?

The only way to satisfy everything Tesla/Elon has said about FSD is for it to be L4 or L5.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

level 5 was some feature that can do anything a human can

The only thing that separates L4 and L5 is the ODD (weather and location).

So in your interpretation what differentiates an L5 system from an L4.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm not confusing anything. I understand the levels better than most here. I'm not gonna go through this levels discussion again lol.

It wasn't long ago people here, including you, thought level 5 was some feature that can do anything a human can.

<citation needed>

I believe I said L5 needs to be able to drive on public roads anywhere a human (legally) can.

Which is true. And which is not the same as "do anything a human can."

The entire difference between 4 and 5 is removing ODD restrictions, with 5 having an unlimited ODD (with fine print for the public roads/areas and legal restrictions stuff)

I just think it's silly that you think your interpretation of the fsd description is the only right one. My pov is that I can see what you and others are saying, but it's open to interpretation.

It's really really not though.

All levels below 4 require action from a human.

Tesla said FSD (pre march 2019) will require NO action from a human.

There's nothing to "interpret" they literally describe a system that MUST be L4 or higher, because it won't require human action.

 

[powertoold]

All levels below 4 require action from a human.

Putting in the navigation destination is an action, isn't it?

Why can't the car just read your mind?

Open to interpretation

 

[Knightshade]

Putting in the navigation destination is an action, isn't it?

Why can't the car just read your mind?

Open to interpretation

Again- no. It's not. You just don't appear to be aware of what the levels actually do or do not say or mean.

Nav destination is not part of the dynamic driving task.

Not even level 5 ADS is not expected to perform "strategic" aspects of vehicle operation, such as route planning. (J3016 8.10, 8.11)



But there is NO "interpretation" of SAE levels where you can consider the level to be lower than 4 if there will be no action required from the human related to the actual DDT that the SAE levels are about

If the car never requires action from a human to drive, it's minimum L4. By definition.

 

[powertoold]

Again- no. It's not. You just don't appear to be aware of what the levels actually do or do not say or mean.

Nav destination is not part of the dynamic driving task.

Not even level 5 ADS is not expected to perform "strategic" aspects of vehicle operation, such as route planning. (J3016 8.10, 8.11)



But there is NO "interpretation" of SAE levels where you can consider the level to be lower than 4 if there will be no action required from the human related to the actual DDT that the SAE levels are about

If the car never requires action from a human to drive, it's minimum L4. By definition.

You do realize that you're the one contorting the fsd description to fit level 4?

The fsd description doesn't use the same verbage as the definitions. The fsd description doesn't ever define an ODD, so how can it be level 4. The fsd description never even mentions driverless operation.

 

[Knightshade]

You do realize that you're the one contorting the fsd description to fit level 4?

Nope.

L3 and below require actions from humans.

L4 and above do not (though they can still accept them when offered- a human CAN take over for an L4 system if they are there and wish to and the car has human controls... they just can't ever be REQUIRED to do so.)


Teslas description says no action will be required from the human.

Thus Tesla is describing a system that is, at least, L4.

It's weird you keep not getting this fundamental difference.

The fsd description doesn't ever define an ODD, so how can it be level 4.

I said they're describing at least L4. They could be describing L5.

The difference will be in what they mean by able to drive in "almost all situations"

But that's not relevant to being above or below L4.... L3 also has an ODD. So you again seem to be confusing what's required to be a certain level... "having an ODD" doesn't mean you're 4 specifically.

The main difference between 3 and 4 is that level 3 will require action from a human because the human is the safety fallback.

An L4 car does not require action from a human and can fail safely on its own.

Tesla said their system will not require human action. Thus at minimum it's L4.

It MIGHT even be 5, if they're defining "almost all situations" to simply be situations on public roads where a human could drive.



What it can't be is lower than L4- since that would be impossible in a system that won't require human action.

The fsd description never even mentions driverless operation.

Again you're showing you don't really understand the differences in the levels and "possible" vs "required"

Having a person in the drivers seat or not does not change the SAE level of the system

What does change it is what, if anything, the system requires of the driver

Tesla says their system will require no action from them to drive.

That is only true of L4 and L5 systems

 

[powertoold]

Basically, this whole discussion is you saying that there's only one interpretation of "no action required by the person in the driver's seat."

If you won't budge on that, then we can end it there.

Loose interpretation: if I'm supervising someone building a house, I didn't take any action as it relates to building the house. I didn't build the house at all. The builder did everything necessary to build the house, etc.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Basically, this whole discussion is you saying that there's only one interpretation of "no action required by the person in the driver's seat."

If you won't budge on that, then we can end it there.

Loose interpretation: if I'm supervising someone building a house, I didn't take any action as it relates to building the house. I didn't build the house at all. The builder did everything necessary to build the house, etc.

Will Tesla be liable or will the driver will be liable if they take no actions and there is a crash?

 

[dbldwn02]

Basically, this whole discussion is you saying that there's only one interpretation of "no action required by the person in the driver's seat."

If you won't budge on that, then we can end it there.

Loose interpretation: if I'm supervising someone building a house, I didn't take any action as it relates to building the house. I didn't build the house at all. The builder did everything necessary to build the house, etc.

Why are you stuck on that but only quickly apologizing for "Tesla Network" That's level 4+....period. End of argument.

You're not pumping TSLA in this thread.

 

[wensai]

Putting aside "no action required by the person in the driver's seat," that is just one of many ways they've strongly suggested L4.

Look at the (many years old) video on tesla.com/autopilot: "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons"

 

[Knightshade]

Basically, this whole discussion is you saying that there's only one interpretation of "no action required by the person in the driver's seat."

Yes, the one using standard definitions of english words, and the levels of responsibility defined in SAE 3016.

Loose interpretation: if I'm supervising someone building a house, I didn't take any action as it relates to building the house.

Supervision is an action.

Apart from that, lower than L4 requires physical action from the person in the drivers seat

Specifically it requires them to not only be prepared to take over driving, it requires them to actually take over and drive the car when prompted to do so.


So clearly a system that requires no action from the person would not require them to drive


This isn't interpretation, it's basic English.



But don't take my word. Here's the SAE telling you I'm right.

Level or Category 3 - Conditional Driving Automation

The sustained and ODD-specific performance by an ADS of the entire DDT under routine/normal operation (see 3.27) with
the expectation that the DDT fallback-ready user is receptive to ADS-issued requests to intervene, as well as to DDT
performance-relevant system failures in other vehicle systems, and will respond appropriately

In an L3 system by definition the human in the drivers seat is expected to take action when needed.



Moving on-

5.5 Level or Category 4 - High Driving Automation

The sustained and ODD-specific performance by an ADS of the entire DDT and DDT fallback’.

NOTE 1: The user does not need to supervise a Level 4 ADS feature or be receptive to a request to intervene while the
ADS is engaged.

L4 requires no action. Ever.

L3 does.

It's that simple.


It reiterates that just a few sentences later-

This automated DDT fallback and minimal risk condition achievement capability is the primary difference between Level 4 and Level 3 ADS features.

This means that an in-vehicle user of an engaged Level 4 ADS feature is a passenger who need not respond to DDT performance-relevant system failures.

Even if you're in the drivers seat- you're a passenger and need take no action. That's L4

(well, at least L4... this is also true of L5, L5 just removes any ODD restrictions)

 

[powertoold]

If Tesla meant level 4, they could have easily said, "no driver required." Rather than something about someone in the driver's seat not driving. Someone who is supervising driving doesn't necessarily mean he/she is driving. No action required as it relates to the actions needed for driving.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Putting aside "no action required by the person in the driver's seat," that is just one of many ways they've strongly suggested L4.

Look at the (many years old) video on tesla.com/autopilot: "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons"

negligent homicide is a legal reason.

 

[boonedocks]

“The fsd description even mentions someone being in the driver's seat”.

Once again, it's open to interpretation. I can see what y'all are saying, but your interpretation isn't the only one.

A soccer coach does no action as it relates to playing soccer. However, the coach supervises and can take action if needed. This is a stupid example, but you see what I'm saying.

Sounds like the robotaxi plan will just be a glorified Uber

 

[Knightshade]

If Tesla meant level 4, they could have easily said, "no driver required." Rather than something about someone in the driver's seat not driving

It's weird you think there's a substantive difference.

What tesla said was no action by the person in the drivers seat.

They did not call them a driver- because they never are required to drive (which would be an action of course)

They're not a driver. They're a passenger.

In a system clearly being described as L4 or L5.

. Someone who is supervising driving doesn't necessarily mean he/she is driving. No action required as it relates to the actions needed for driving.

Except action is absolutely required by all levels below 4.

Like you've had explained to you about 20 times now.

I even cited J3016 describing the actions required by L3 of the driver.


Thus if NO action by a human is required it's L4 or L5.

by definition

 

[powertoold]

I just disagree that supervising must mean taking action as it relates to driving. When a parent is supervising his son's driving, the parent isn't taking any action as it relates to driving.

 

[Knightshade]

I just disagree that supervising must mean taking action as it relates to driving. When a parent is supervising his son's driving, the parent isn't taking any action as it relates to the son driving.

But L3 and below require actually driving at some point.

Not just supervising.

YOU are the emergency fallback system of the ADS in L3.

The system is L3 because it can require action from a human

If it could drive without ever requiring action it would be level 4

Again J3016 spells this out for you

This automated DDT fallback and minimal risk condition achievement capability is the primary difference between Level 4 and Level 3 ADS features.

This means that an in-vehicle user of an engaged Level 4 ADS feature is a passenger who need not respond to DDT performance-relevant system failure

That's apart from the fact supervising is also an action using any common English definition of action.



ac·tion
/ˈakSH(ə)n/

noun
1. the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim.
2. a thing done; an act.

 

[powertoold]

The fsd description just says it's designed to conduct short and long trips without any action required by the driver.

It doesn't say "all the time" or "never" requires any action.

If the fsd system CAN conduct a single short and long trip without any driving action by the supervisor, then it fulfills the description.