Another AutoPilot Easter Egg NOT!!!!

[S4WRXTTCS]

With 8.0 it could be supported that Tesla worked with the NHTSA in how they were going to solve some of the issues surrounding AP.

But, the latest changes I don't see any evidence that the NHTSA was behind it, and the changes seem to be extremely half baked. Where Elon says in a tweet "Will be restored soon where there is a lead vehicle"

Tesla’s new Autopilot speed restrictions are not only about speed limits but also about the driving environment

We don't really know why they continue to monkey with it.

We don't know why the changes were left out of the release notes

We don't know what they plan on doing in the future.

 

[robby]

Elon said, as posted above, "We have done most of these changes with NHTSA and I don’t want to speak for them but they appear to be pretty happy with the changes and the reactions from them is quite positive." This is how the NHTSA works with automakers. No conspiracy theory is required to understand how the real world works. While you may find the changes "unsafe" it may be that the NHTSA has a different view. Also, I am only offering a differing viewpoint. Of course, I could be wrong. But you don't need to label someone with a different point of view as presenting a theory that requires a conspiracy. That would make sense to me if I was arguing like Alex Jones and spewing out some real nonsense but I think my arguments make the most sense as to why you are seeing these changes. But even if they don't they should be able to be challenged without calling it a conspiracy theory.

There's a big difference between NHTSA liking these changes and NHTSA dictating them to Tesla. If it was the latter, then Tesla should tell its customers what's happening, and acknowledge it's being done to meet regulatory hurdles. If that's the truth and Tesla told me that, (1) I'd appreciate the transparency, and (2) I'd know whom to direct my concerns to.

Instead, Tesla surreptitiously pushed out this change and omitted it from the release notes. When asked about it, Elon said it's because "people in general were going a bit too fast on winding roads." They did all this while introducing a regression on highway driving, walking back earlier AP promises, and ignoring very polite correspondence from myself and others asking about the AP roadmap for features we paid for two years ago.

From my vantage point, Tesla had spent almost two years marching toward its initial vision of Autopilot, and then suddenly changed course and started walking backwards. Maybe they have good reasons; but giving them all the benefit of the doubt in the world about those reasons, they bungled the communication very badly, and the result is that I no longer trust their promises or their OTA software updates.

The good news is, most of these issues are rooted in software, so Tesla can fix them and make things right if they choose. I suspect they will, but I speak up on here and in emails to Tesla because I don't take that for granted.

 

[Canuck]

There's a big difference between NHTSA liking these changes and NHTSA dictating them to Tesla. If it was the latter, then Tesla should tell its customers what's happening, and acknowledge it's being done to meet regulatory hurdles. If that's the truth and Tesla told me that, (1) I'd appreciate the transparency, and (2) I'd know whom to direct my concerns to.

But Tesla can't say that the "NHTSA [is] dictating them to Tesla" because not only is that a lie, it would also be a slap in the face of the NHTSA. Elon is saying the NHTSA is liking them so far (to use his exact words: "pretty happy with the changes and the reactions from them is quite positive") because the process is ongoing. The NHTSA is not "dictating" them -- that's an Order -- which the NHTSA has the statutory authority to issue but it is usually done as a last resort after negotiations fail. What is happening now is called a negotiated resolution to avoid a NHTSA statutory Order that Tesla would ultimately have no control over and could result in the loss of AP1.0 in its entirety since the NHTSA is not going to tinker with the software. So Tesla has try to keep NHTSA "happy" or liking them. Again, he would be slapping the NHTSA in the face if he said they "dictated" them. You can't go into a negotiation and work out issues behind closed doors and them come out of those doors and say you were dictated to. That's the sure fire way to get dictated to. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. It happens all the time with regulatory bodies.

Again, all speculation on my part but I think I'm on the right track. Then again, I am bias towards my own view but still no one has convinced me otherwise. But your attempt was better than the conspiracy theory one.

 

[robby]

But Tesla can't say that the "NHTSA [is] dictating them to Tesla" because not only is that a lie, it would also be a slap in the face of the NHTSA. Elon is saying the NHTSA is liking them so far (to use his exact words: "pretty happy with the changes and the reactions from them is quite positive") because the process is ongoing. The NHTSA is not "dictating" them -- that's an Order -- which the NHTSA has the statutory authority to issue but it is usually done as a last resort after negotiations fail. What is happening now is called a negotiated resolution to avoid a NHTSA statutory Order that Tesla would ultimately have no control over and could result in the loss of AP1.0 in its entirety since the NHTSA is not going to tinker with the software. So Tesla has try to keep NHTSA "happy" or liking them. Again, he would be slapping the NHTSA in the face if he said they "dictated" them. You can't go into a negotiation and work out issues behind closed doors and them come out of those doors and say you were dictated to. That's the sure fire way to get dictated to. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. It happens all the time with regulatory bodies.

Again, all speculation on my part but I think I'm on the right track. Then again, I am bias towards my own view but still no one has convinced me otherwise. But your attempt was better than the conspiracy theory one.

But if NHTSA is telling Tesla how this has to go down, why is it a slap in the face for Tesla to inform their customers of that? It's not like the only way to say that is "those dirtbags at NHTSA are taking your features." They can say "We've been working with US regulators, and they have asked us to impose the following restrictions on Autopilot, which we have agreed to." If NHTSA has a problem with that, they are in effect asking not to be accountable for their own demands, which is crazy.

Also, I don't understand why NHTSA would want these things kept secret in the first place. If they speccing out restrictions for Tesla, why wouldn't they want those restrictions published so that every other manufacturer can conform to them? It seems like a recipe for complaints and lawsuits to work out different deals with different manufacturers. Not saying you are wrong on this point, but the logic of it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[kavyboy]

Hanlon's razor & Occam's razor. Perhaps Tesla's team is doing the best they can, but just messing it up. It's still unacceptable, but there's no point in trying to figure out the behind-the-scenes antics.

 

[justg0]

Hanlon's razor & Occam's razor. Perhaps Tesla's team is doing the best they can, but just messing it up. It's still unacceptable, but there's no point in trying to figure out the behind-the-scenes antics.

I for one believe that Tesla won't deliberately screw over its AP1 customers. They won't do it in order to justify AP2 or just for PR, etc. They just won't. They are doing this with their best intentions and I think we need to give them time to figure this all out.

 

[green1]

I for one believe that Tesla won't deliberately screw over its AP1 customers.

Too late. They already screwed over their AP1 customers ALMOST A YEAR AGO when they released 7.1, and they have continued to screw harder with every single update since. You say they "won't" as if it's still a future possibility instead of a past event!

 

[HX_Guy]

Too late. They already screwed over their AP1 customers ALMOST A YEAR AGO when they released 7.1, and they have continued to screw harder with every single update since. You say they "won't" as if it's still a future possibility instead of a past event!

Being a new Tesla owner, Im not up to date on a lot of the past stuff...

What happened with 7.1 vs 7.0 on AP1 cars?

 

[green1]

Being a new Tesla owner, Im not up to date on a lot of the past stuff...

What happened with 7.1 vs 7.0 on AP1 cars?

7.0 had no limit to the speed of AP activation, and only nagged you to hold the wheel at actual curves in the road. (you could drive an unlimited distance without holding the wheel if the road was perfectly straight)
7.1 limited your speed to 5MPH over the limit on certain classes of roadway (and 45MPH when it didnt' know the limit) and had a timed nag that varied in frequency depending on the class of roadway.
8.0 then further increased the frequency of the nag to near constant, and now in a later 8.0 release we see the 5 over limit change to be the exact speed limit (and often sudden deceleration to substantially below the limit)

 

[HX_Guy]

Thanks green1 for the breakdown. Is there a low speed limit before you can engage AP? As in, do you have to be going a certain speed?

I've never had any AP as Ive only had the car for a week and it has the AP2 hardware, but my wife's new E300 has it's own version which while I assume far inferior in its capability, has no restrictions aside from having to touch the steering wheel about every 30 seconds. It's still amazed by the technology and love it in that car, however it's far from safe if left completely alone. The car will straight barrel into the next lane, or lane barrier, if the turn is more than 15º it feels like. From the reviews Ive read, this seems intentional as Mercedes does not want the system used for self driving, but more for driver assist..meaning a safe, straight road. Anytime the road curves too much, they apparently feel that the driver needs to be in 100% control so the "unsafe" self steering does this behavior so that it scares the driver more or less into never using it in those type of situations. You lean pretty quickly what its limits are and when you should use it and when not.

Having said all that, again there are no restrictions on when you can activate it (minimum speed) and no maximum speed that I've seen. It will do TACC just fine as well, coming to a complete stop and then pick back up when the car in front starts moving. The infographic of what the car "sees" is pretty terrible compared to what Tesla shows on their instrument cluster, but one thing I do like is that the Mercedes has the heads up display which shows when AP is engaged/disengaged so you're fully aware of its current state.

 

[green1]

Tesla's AP used to be a long way ahead of the Mercedes version. Tesla is working hard to change that. All the comparisons I've seen were done before Tesla neutered AP, and generally talk about how much less intervention the Tesla one needs. Being that Tesla now requires about the same amount of intervention, I'd love to see if reviewers still think it's better.

 

[justg0]

7.0 had no limit to the speed of AP activation, and only nagged you to hold the wheel at actual curves in the road. (you could drive an unlimited distance without holding the wheel if the road was perfectly straight)
7.1 limited your speed to 5MPH over the limit on certain classes of roadway (and 45MPH when it didnt' know the limit) and had a timed nag that varied in frequency depending on the class of roadway.
8.0 then further increased the frequency of the nag to near constant, and now in a later 8.0 release we see the 5 over limit change to be the exact speed limit (and often sudden deceleration to substantially below the limit)

I think I look at all this differently than you do. I don't believe they are doing this to screw the users of AP1. That's now how good companies work. They are making deliberate changes for reasons that we can all speculate on and have our own opinions about them. But unless they clearly disclose the reason for each change we don't know. Like any beta software, Tesla's AP will undergo changes. They are looking at all the data they gather and then some very smart people are making these decisions based on that and also based on all the legalities they need to adhere to.

You look at it as screwing over AP1 users. I don't. I just trust that they are making the changes based on very valid reasons.

 

[Lex]

Again, both the planning AND the execution of this new "feature" were botched. We don't want it, AND it doesn't even work properly -- or maybe it does based on that Electrek article ? How could we know since it's an undocumented new "feature".

This is not the way to deliver new software to a pile of tech enthusiasts.

<conspiracy>If this was not a way to increase the value of AP2 then I might want to sell you a bridge or two, interested ? </conspiracy>

 

[thimel]

Thanks green1 for the breakdown. Is there a low speed limit before you can engage AP? As in, do you have to be going a certain speed..

AP1 can be turned even when stopped. I think there needs to be a stopped car in front of you to do so. You can't have your foot on the brake when engaging AP, so I engage hill hold by pressing hard on the brake, remove my foot from the pedals and then engage AP

 

[justg0]

Again, both the planning AND the execution of this new "feature" were botched. We don't want it, AND it doesn't even work properly -- or maybe it does based on that Electrek article ? How could we know since it's an undocumented new "feature".

This is not the way to deliver new software to a pile of tech enthusiasts.

<conspiracy>If this was not a way to increase the value of AP2 then I might want to sell you a bridge or two, interested ? </conspiracy>

So let's see. Elon Musk and bunch of Tesla executives sat in a room and said how do we increase value of AP2 - let's dumb down AP1. Brilliant! That's exactly the plan Dr. Evil would come up with!!!

I think AP2 and FSD can stand on their own foot without having to dumb down AP1. In any case, it is not like AP2 is competing against AP1. They only sell AP2 now. And they have enough customers to go after rather than going after AP1 customers to upgrade.

Yeah, I agree they can do a better job of execution. Over time they will. I remember when Facebook was young and they would release and update their API every week (Tuesday) and we app developers would scramble each Tuesday night to see which our our apps broke. There was no prior communication, no proper documentation. And then as Facebook grew, so did their processes and releases and documentation. Same will happen with Tesla.

 

[wk057]

In response to my inquries on the matter, I was informed by Tesla this evening that the undocumented restriction reducing speed to under the speed limit was being "corrected" with no further details provided.

 

[jak]

Hmm... I wonder if that's a firmware change to remove the dangerous behavior or just a documentation change mentioning the bad behavior. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Thanks for the update @wk057

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

7.0 had no limit to the speed of AP activation, and only nagged you to hold the wheel at actual curves in the road. (you could drive an unlimited distance without holding the wheel if the road was perfectly straight)
7.1 limited your speed to 5MPH over the limit on certain classes of roadway (and 45MPH when it didnt' know the limit) and had a timed nag that varied in frequency depending on the class of roadway.
8.0 then further increased the frequency of the nag to near constant, and now in a later 8.0 release we see the 5 over limit change to be the exact speed limit (and often sudden deceleration to substantially below the limit)

Some extra detail -

8.0 - locked you out of using AP for the rest of your drive if you momentary exceeded the 90mph AP limit.

Latest 8.0 update - Changed the +5 over to the speed limit itself for rural roads and undivided highways
- Added 50mph limit in specific situations without ever really telling anyone what situations.

Or from a different perspective (what I gather is collective voice on here)

7.0 - Tesla is crazy for releasing AP with no limits. There are going to be all sorts of crashes
7.1 - Yep, Tesla is cracking down. Shouldn't have made all those youtube videos
Post 7.1 -
Crash. Crash
Death
Media uproar
NHTSA investigation
Crash, Crash
Please for the love of god the radar can't see stopped objects!!!
Stop crashing into stalled cars!!!
8.0 - This nagging sucks, but we couldn't have nice things because we're stupid

Post 8.0 updates - Okay, Tesla you're going a bit too far now. It doesn't work, and you're going to get us hurt.

 

[AWDtsla]

Some extra detail -

8.0 - locked you out of using AP for the rest of your drive if you momentary exceeded the 90mph AP limit.

Latest 8.0 update - Changed the +5 over to the speed limit itself for rural roads and undivided highways
- Added 50mph limit in specific situations without ever really telling anyone what situations.

Or from a different perspective (what I gather is collective voice on here)

7.0 - Tesla is crazy for releasing AP with no limits. There are going to be all sorts of crashes
7.1 - Yep, Tesla is cracking down. Shouldn't have made all those youtube videos
Post 7.1 -
Crash. Crash
Death
Media uproar
NHTSA investigation
Crash, Crash
Please for the love of god the radar can't see stopped objects!!!
Stop crashing into stalled cars!!!
8.0 - This nagging sucks, but we couldn't have nice things because we're stupid

Post 8.0 updates - Okay, Tesla you're going a bit too far now. It doesn't work, and you're going to get us hurt.

Yet NONE of those restrictions would have stopped any accidents that we know of, or the two deaths. One being non-detection of off-center stopped vehicle, and the other one being non-detection of a trailer perpendicular to the road. Several other minor accidents where AP failed to stop for cars in lane as well.

 

[AWDtsla]

While I'm at it, the fact that the driver doesn't have their foot dragging over the brake pedal at all times seems much more dangerous than not having a hand on the wheel.