Another AutoPilot Easter Egg NOT!!!!

[AWDtsla]

Yes, holding the wheel is probably about liability — but I honestly believe it also improves safety by improving engagement. Read enough about airplane accidents and their causes, and I think you'll agree that engagement is important for reducing the risks associated with autonomous systems. Until we can get beyond L2, driver engagement is critical for safety. I'm certain that Tesla's AP team is aware of this.

Because of the importance of engagement, I think your analogy with cruise control is mistaken. Cruise control requires me to remain engaged through steering: its main limitation becomes a safety feature, at least barring "highway hypnosis". Autosteer reduces the functional need for engagement, so we want to stop holding the wheel. But Autosteer isn't L3 or better: it can't handle all situations, nor warn the driver to take over with sufficient lead time. In this situation engagement becomes very important for safety. Engagement reduces mode error, and also reduces the handoff problem.

Keeping a hand on the wheel, even when I don't have to steer, gives me immediate tactile feedback on whatever Autosteer is doing. Even with my eyes on the road, that extra feedback helps improve my reaction time to unexpected events, which improves safety. So I believe that the extra feedback from keeping a hand on the wheel is a net win for driver engagement and safety.

I've had no problems paying attention with AP engaged and no hands on the wheel. Yet, every driver who you've ever seen texting and driving has had a hand on the wheel and has not being paying any attention. So this theory is dead. Hands on wheel requirement is 100% for liability, nothing else.

And frankly, feeling the wheel for steering inputs doesn't work, because a torque input from the computer to the wheel may result in 0 angle change. My inner ear works much better for detecting how much actual steering FORCE is being applied.

 

[wk057]

It's pretty obvious that virtually all "improvements" to AP1 since release have been Tesla trying to backpedal and cover their behinds at the expense of removing functionality.

Up until recently I had managed to use some hacks on my cars to completely disable all of the arbitrary restrictions placed on autopilot (the 5 MPH rule, and any hands-on requirement). I recently ended up selling my P85D and getting an X P90D with newer firmware. Unfortunately, Tesla has patched those hacks directly on the DAS module and I haven't had time to come up with an alternative solution to make the system more usable again. I've been able to keep the wife's P85 on an older firmware version where I can still disable the restrictions.

My point with the above isn't to brag about this, but it is that I've driven tens of thousands of miles using autopilot with the restrictions and "safety improvements" all completely disabled and have done so with zero incidents. With mostly normal attention paid to the road and understanding of how the system actually works I find that it was a very pleasant and very safe driving experience. As noted by @AWDtsla above, keeping a hand on the wheel or occasionally needing to needlessly tug the wheel does nothing to improve safety. The only thing that can make AP1 safely usable is diligence of the driver. I would never keep a hand on the wheel while using AP, but I would take over any time the system was doing or was about to do something that I as the driver wouldn't have normally done. It's just common sense to me. If, for example, AP looks like it's driving closer to the adjacent lane than I would normally have done, I just take over. Simple. I don't need the car to tell me when the car is about to do something stupid. In fact, with the hands-on restriction disabled the car would never even show the "take over immediately" warning under any circumstance. It would drive on indefinitely regardless of the situation, obviously placing the responsibility of driving on, you know, the driver.

(Edit: As a bit of a technical detail, having a hand on the wheel while autopilot is engaged provides the driver with no more control over the vehicle than with no hands on the wheel. While AP is engaged, the EPAS module holds the steering rack where the autopilot system commands it to, and input front the driver between no-input-torque and almost-enough-torque-to-disengage-AP has no effect on the actual wheels. The system measures the torque differential on the steering rack vs the angle commanded by AP to determine if a hand is on the wheel. Essentially, you're just twisting the steering column ever so slightly but having no actual effect on the steering until AP disengages. It is the illusion of control.)

To operate AP1 safely, the driver needs to know to pay attention, know the limitations of the system, and have a basic understanding of how the system actually works. Do this, and all is well. The biggest problem with some of the latest "improvements" is that they are unpredictable and undocumented. When you don't understand how the system will behave in a particular situation it creates a hazard. Believe it or not, I'm perfectly fine with Tesla including as many safety improvements to autopilot as they like, even ones that do ridiculous things like disobeying a driver's set speed.

HOWEVER, as long as they insist that the driver is liable for the actions of the vehicle regardless of whether or not autopilot is in use (which is perfectly fine, by the way) then they need to include the option to disable these "features" and actually give the driver control over how the system behaves. If the driver can't decide basic things definitively and with certainty, like how the speed of the car is determined, then Tesla either needs to take responsibility and liability for those decisions or they need to actually allow the driver to use the features they paid for in a way that obeys them. The former simply isn't going to happen, obviously, because everything Tesla has done is to avoid taking on any liability. Until my car has its own driver's license the only legitimate solution is obey the driver in any and all cases.

 

[croman]

Tesla has improved AP1.0 with 8.0. It can detect humans. Tesla Autopilot significantly improved pedestrian detection in v8 update tests show, now renders humans

It also has much better alert capabilities. Tesla Autopilot’s new radar technology predicts an accident caught on dashcam a second later

I don't agree with Tesla adding on limitations and I agree the best way to deal with this would be opt outs or ins depending on the situation but I think Tesla knows they can get away with this and very few people will resist enough to stop them or deter them. Very Hobbesian.

 

[Saghost]

FACT: The AP software in the latest release changed.
FACT: There are now limitations on what speed the AP can be set to in different road types.
FACT: The AP is now apparently (a) issuing a warning and (b) slowing to 50mph under certain conditions.

Theory: The AP is now slowing to 50 mph when it sees emergency flashers
Theory: The AP is now slowing to 50 mph when there is a car stopped in an adjacent lane.
Theory: The AP is now slowing to 50 mph when it detects closure rate above a given threshold in the lane in front of it or an adjacent lane.
Theory: Tesla did this because the government told them to.
Theory: Tesla did this because of the crash.
Theory: Tesla did this because of a previously unknown limitation in the AP hardware and/or software.
Theory: Tesla did this because they are concerned about liability.
Theory: Tesla did this because they want to screw over their customers.

I had the 50 mph limit happen to me a couple times in my various long XMas drives. It isn't flashers - it happens when there aren't any. I don't know if the car has to be completely stopped or not - all my examples were stopped cars. IT happened with cars near on the shoulder, but not with ones that were maybe 6 feet away from the lane; it seems to react to stopped (or very slow?) cars in the next lane/adjacent shoulder.

The restriction seems to last about fifteen seconds after the last stopped car it saw - but it won't automatically set the AP speed back up after the restriction ends.

If you're using the accelerator to hold speed in the face of it, you'll know the restriction ended because the "AP restricted..." message will be replaced by the new "accelerator pressed, cruise control won't brake" message when the restriction clears.

 

[drklain]

Useful data! I'm hoping Tesla puts out some additional information with the 8.1 release (this week <g>). Release notes aren't great but a press release or something may help us all....

 

[mblakele]

I've had no problems paying attention with AP engaged and no hands on the wheel. Yet, every driver who you've ever seen texting and driving has had a hand on the wheel and has not being paying any attention. So this theory is dead. Hands on wheel requirement is 100% for liability, nothing else.

And frankly, feeling the wheel for steering inputs doesn't work, because a torque input from the computer to the wheel may result in 0 angle change. My inner ear works much better for detecting how much actual steering FORCE is being applied.

I'm sorry to say that we probably can't have a productive discussion about this, but I'll try. The problem as I see is that, just like me and everyone else out there, you don't know when you're disengaged. You can't know. We — all of us — can't tell reliably if we're impaired or distracted or not. It's like trying to see how you look without a mirror. We need some outside agency to tell us that. If things go badly we might spot it in retrospect, after an accident or a near miss. But it's better to avoid that, isn't it?

Those texters are driving with impaired attention, and I'm glad we agree about that. But they would deny it, because they can't tell. If you asked them, most would probably claim to be above average drivers. Anyway as a counterargument to "hands on the wheel", this doesn't hold water. I proposed that "hands on the wheel" improves safety by promoting engagement. Are you saying that those texters would be just as safe if they kept texting, but took their hands off the wheel completely? No, they'd be less safe: chances are they'd crash almost immediately. So "hands on the wheel" makes them a little safer — but nevertheless they should park or put down the phone.

On your second point, please don't rely on your inner ear too much. You may feel that it's more reliable than feedback from the steering wheel — but it's slow. It may take as much as a second, or even longer, to notice a change. At any kind of speed, that could be dangerous. And while your inner ear may be in great shape, both temporary and permanent disorders are pretty common. I had a cold recently, so I don't quite trust mine, but my hands are ok.

In my experience "hands on the wheel" works very well. Perhaps much of the feedback from the steering wheel is "0 angle" changes, but that's part of what helps keep me engaged. It's especially helpful as a guard against mode error: thinking that Autosteer is active when it isn't. This is an extremely dangerous error. I notice it quickly with my hands are on the wheel, because there's no resistance on the wheel.

Off topic, but isn't this an amazing disagreement to have? Whether or not we should keep our hands on the wheel while driving? People ten years ago would be shocked. In another ten years, they may be mystified.

 

[boonedocks]

I'm sorry to say that we probably can't have a productive discussion about this, but I'll try. The problem as I see is that, just like me and everyone else out there, you don't know when you're disengaged. You can't know. We — all of us — can't tell reliably if we're impaired or distracted or not. It's like trying to see how you look without a mirror. We need some outside agency to tell us that. If things go badly we might spot it in retrospect, after an accident or a near miss. But it's better to avoid that, isn't it?

Those texters are driving with impaired attention, and I'm glad we agree about that. But they would deny it, because they can't tell. If you asked them, most would probably claim to be above average drivers. Anyway as a counterargument to "hands on the wheel", this doesn't hold water. I proposed that "hands on the wheel" improves safety by promoting engagement. Are you saying that those texters would be just as safe if they kept texting, but took their hands off the wheel completely? No, they'd be less safe: chances are they'd crash almost immediately. So "hands on the wheel" makes them a little safer — but nevertheless they should park or put down the phone.

On your second point, please don't rely on your inner ear too much. You may feel that it's more reliable than feedback from the steering wheel — but it's slow. It may take as much as a second, or even longer, to notice a change. At any kind of speed, that could be dangerous. And while your inner ear may be in great shape, both temporary and permanent disorders are pretty common. I had a cold recently, so I don't quite trust mine, but my hands are ok.

In my experience "hands on the wheel" works very well. Perhaps much of the feedback from the steering wheel is "0 angle" changes, but that's part of what helps keep me engaged. It's especially helpful as a guard against mode error: thinking that Autosteer is active when it isn't. This is an extremely dangerous error. I notice it quickly with my hands are on the wheel, because there's no resistance on the wheel.

Off topic, but isn't this an amazing disagreement to have? Whether or not we should keep our hands on the wheel while driving? People ten years ago would be shocked. In another ten years, they may be mystified.

Most texters I see have knees on the wheel...does that count :/

 

[wk057]

Drove my X today on NC-16 (65 MPH zone, 4-lane divided highway). Had the "Autosteer speed restricted to 50 MPH" crap happen twice randomly. In one case I was actually being tailgated (~1 car length) while cruising at 74 MPH in the right lane. The car decided it was time to do this pointless under-the-speed-limit restriction and set cruise speed to 50 MPH, and in the very brief moment it took me to realize the deceleration and become aware of the IC notification message so I could override the speed drop with the accelerator, the tailgater had nearly rear-ended me and was literally within inches of my bumper. As I was overriding this restriction to re-establish my original speed, the other driver abruptly jerked to the adjacent lane, accelerated, held their horn while giving me the finger and passing me at a relatively high speed, and then jumped in front of me quickly to take the exit ramp that we were approaching.

I overrode the deceleration by the time my speed had dropped only 5-6 MPH, but this was plenty to quickly close the gap between me and the tailgater behind me. Granted, he shouldn't have been riding so close to my rear-end in the first place, but there was absolutely no reason for me to have reduced my speed. There was basically no one else on the road nearby and lane markings were clear. Presumably any other driver would have not expected a lead car to drop in speed for no reason, and my unexpected deceleration would be perceived as a bit of a **** move at the very least. The unsafe situation ONLY existed because of Tesla's new restriction.

That said, I'm more than fed up with this nonsense. I've written yet another letter to Tesla about this new "feature", and since I had not gotten a response to my previous inquiry on the matter I was probably a little less than perfectly polite this time.

I expect them to provide a full explanation for the behavior and a resolution to correct and/or fully disable this unwanted and unsafe behavior or I will be taking this matter further, starting with a detailed NHTSA filing. This is simply unacceptable. It's bad enough they've neutered this paid feature to the point of being pointless to use, now they're intentionally making it unsafe to use.

 

[boonedocks]

Drove my X today on NC-16 (65 MPH zone, 4-lane divided highway). Had the "Autosteer speed restricted to 50 MPH" crap happen twice randomly. In one case I was actually being tailgated (~1 car length) while cruising at 74 MPH in the right lane. The car decided it was time to do this pointless under-the-speed-limit restriction and set cruise speed to 50 MPH, and in the very brief moment it took me to realize the deceleration and become aware of the IC notification message so I could override the speed drop with the accelerator, the tailgater had nearly rear-ended me and was literally within inches of my bumper. As I was overriding this restriction to re-establish my original speed, the other driver abruptly jerked to the adjacent lane, accelerated, held their horn while giving me the finger and passing me at a relatively high speed, and then jumped in front of me quickly to take the exit ramp that we were approaching.

I overrode the deceleration by the time my speed had dropped only 5-6 MPH, but this was plenty to quickly close the gap between me and the tailgater behind me. Granted, he shouldn't have been riding so close to my rear-end in the first place, but there was absolutely no reason for me to have reduced my speed. There was basically no one else on the road nearby and lane markings were clear. Presumably any other driver would have not expected a lead car to drop in speed for no reason, and my unexpected deceleration would be perceived as a bit of a **** move at the very least. The unsafe situation ONLY existed because of Tesla's new restriction.

That said, I'm more than fed up with this nonsense. I've written yet another letter to Tesla about this new "feature", and since I had not gotten a response to my previous inquiry on the matter I was probably a little less than perfectly polite this time.

I expect them to provide a full explanation for the behavior and a resolution to correct and/or fully disable this unwanted and unsafe behavior or I will be taking this matter further, starting with a detailed NHTSA filing. This is simply unacceptable. It's bad enough they've neutered this paid feature to the point of being pointless to use, now they're intentionally making it unsafe to use.

@wk057 I am sorry and I am 100% with you on this one. Thank goodness we as a group of Tesla owners have someone as articulate and well versed to be able to speak with authority. I have driven my June '15 85D over 45,000 miles and use AP daily on my ~100 mile commute. I was one of those that never considered purchasing a Tesla until the announcement of AP and the promises of what was in store. Early on I was very happy and comfortable using and even excited about how AutoPilot was performing and what potential seemed to be. Having the capabilities dumbed down and now made even more dangerous through resent updates than most sober human drivers I am beginning to think it's not by mistake but by plan to make us not want to use it to limit Tesla's potential liability. I absolutely hope this is bot true but with each update it seems even more plausible than ever. If there is a way to piggyback or sign something collectively from other owners please be vocal about it so we can chime in as well. I have waited to see what changes would be announced through tweets or articles but it doesn't seem like the new updates were by mistake but rather were forethought and by design....

 

[wk057]

@wk057 I am sorry and I am 100% with you on this one. Thank goodness we as a group of Tesla owners have someone as articulate and well versed to be able to speak with authority. I have driven my June '15 85D over 45,000 miles and use AP daily on my ~100 mile commute. I was one of those that never considered purchasing a Tesla until the announcement of AP and the promises of what was in store. Early on I was very happy and comfortable using and even excited about how AutoPilot was performing and what potential seemed to be. Having the capabilities dumbed down and now made even more dangerous through resent updates than most sober human drivers I am beginning to think it's not by mistake but by plan to make us not want to use it to limit Tesla's potential liability. I absolutely hope this is bot true but with each update it seems even more plausible than ever. If there is a way to piggyback or sign something collectively from other owners please be vocal about it so we can chime in as well. I have waited to see what changes would be announced through tweets or articles but it doesn't seem like the new updates were by mistake but rather were forethought and by design....

Honestly, I would pay for Tesla to make a version of the firmware with v7.0's usability and the latest v8.0's actual improvements (like the double lead car radar stuff). v7.0 still had some hold the wheel nags, but they only happened in situations where the car was actually at least a little unsure of itself (like in a turn at highway speed). It didn't have any speed restrictions besides the 90 MPH upper limit, which is perfectly reasonable (at 90 MPH the camera is only getting a frame like every 4 to 5 feet of travel...). Overall, I actually quite liked 7.0 even with the flaws of diving towards exit ramps and turn lanes.

I have considered the possibility that Tesla has been intentionally adding these senseless restrictions in an effort to prevent use of the feature in order to limit their liability exposure. It's quite obvious at this point that the AP1 system will simply never be able to do the things Musk claimed it would at the unveiling. There's never going to be hands free on-ramp to off-ramp highway driving. There will never be the car meeting you at your door autonomously based on your calendar entries. And many of the other things touted.

For those who think I'm being unreasonable, I suggest you watch the autopilot portion of the release event from October 2014: (Starts at about 6:15)

 

[drklain]

Actually, those things (meeting you at your door based on your calendar) are all things that he said are things he'd "like to do" at the 9:24 mark. In rewatching the video, it seems to me what he says after that are goals he was pushing to achieve but not things he said AP1 could do....or am I missing something in the video?

 

[AWDtsla]

It's quite obvious at this point that the AP1 system will simply never be able to do the things Musk claimed it would at the unveiling. There's never going to be hands free on-ramp to off-ramp highway driving. There will never be the car meeting you at your door autonomously based on your calendar entries. And many of the other things touted

Just wait for the disappointment from the "Full self driving" that can't fully self drive. There's at least 2 really obvious holes why it will never do so, well maybe 3.

 

[S.H.]

How did you get auto steer? I have 8.0 and don't have anything

 

[Planned_Apathy]

Just wait for the disappointment from the "Full self driving" that can't fully self drive. There's at least 2 really obvious holes why it will never do so, well maybe 3.

AWD, I agree with you on this. And I think that Tesla knows it. I think that these new cars were marketed with "full self-driving capability" so as an extra incentive for people to keep buying cars during the "dead" period between a functional AP1 and a totally non-functional AP2.

Anyway, what are your two or three holes? I think that it can't happen without LIDAR. I think that full self-driving can't happen without an integrated smart infrastructure that communicates with the cars. And I think it can't happen, unless all (or at least most) cars are communicating with each other and with the smart infrastructure. I can't imagine that regulators will approve and certify self-driving cars for marketing, sale, and use by the general public without at least these things (and probably many more things that I don't know about). And I think that there will need to be extensive industry collaboration on standards and systems to make it work, while Tesla hasn't shown any inclination to collaborate. But I suspect that you're thinking of more technical issues, and I'm very confident that you're more technically competent than I am.

 

[AWDtsla]

AWD, I agree with you on this. And I think that Tesla knows it. I think that these new cars were marketed with "full self-driving capability" so as an extra incentive for people to keep buying cars during the "dead" period between a functional AP1 and a totally non-functional AP2.

Anyway, what are your two or three holes? I think that it can't happen without LIDAR. I think that full self-driving can't happen without an integrated smart infrastructure that communicates with the cars. And I think it can't happen, unless all (or at least most) cars are communicating with each other and with the smart infrastructure. I can't imagine that regulators will approve and certify self-driving cars for marketing, sale, and use by the general public without at least these things (and probably many more things that I don't know about). And I think that there will need to be extensive industry collaboration on standards and systems to make it work, while Tesla hasn't shown any inclination to collaborate. But I suspect that you're thinking of more technical issues, and I'm very confident that you're more technically competent than I am.

1. Heated cameras unable to handle more than clean water before being obscured.
2. Blindspot for handling tight intersections. Think 4-way stop, one way streets, with parking on both sides. Go look at the layout in person. You know how you would lean your head forwards to make sure no cars are coming? Yeah, it can't do that. It's a shame really, 2 more camera's on the nose of the car would cover it. But the current NVIDIA system doesn't take 10 cameras.
3. Redundancy of control systems.

I can keep thinking up more. Like not just simple pedestrian recognition, but recognizing hand signals from someone directing traffic. So they made the computer replaceable. Doesn't mean there's enough compute on the shipping system to be able to recognize that.

LIDAR or car to car communication isn't necessary. Just a s***ton of compute and enough camera's such there are no blind spots, and you can have a super-human driver.

 

[Electroman]

I lurked in the Volt and Mercedes forums. Since I don't see anyone complaining much about their hands free systems I take it they all should be 10 times better than the useless junk Musk has unleaded in Teslas.

Yeah right !!

 

[robby]

Actually, those things (meeting you at your door based on your calendar) are all things that he said are things he'd "like to do" at the 9:24 mark. In rewatching the video, it seems to me what he says after that are goals he was pushing to achieve but not things he said AP1 could do....or am I missing something in the video?

That was only in reference to the snake charger. He was unequivocal about what wk057 alluded to: "You'll be able to summon the car if you're on private property (you have to be on private property). You can actually summon the car and the car will come to wherever you are."

 

[Lex]

Folks I don't think this is NHTSA because 1) they are a government agency that should be as transparent as possible, and 2) many of us here affected are not in the USA.

I'm starting to agree that this is Tesla acting unilaterally to render AP1 less amazing, so that AP2 looks more amazing.

And to make matters worse the planning AND the execution of this last batch of restrictions have been botched. They are not paying attention to our firmware anymore because they are already onto the Next Big Thing - Tesla Vision.

They are playing a very stupid game if you ask me -- starting with Autopilot being "self driving" and then dramatically (and accurately) moving to "Autopilot is just driver assistance".

The bottom line is that AP1 is just driver assistance. If they stick to that line then the driver is responsible, always, period.

Now the more interesting questions in my mind are .. will AP2 and especially Autonomous AP run exactly the speed limit everywhere it goes ? Here in Toronto and Southern Ontario citizens have decided that the signs are all wrong, pretty much everywhere (except residential streets and school zones thankfully). And there is no political will to change them to reflect modern vehicles and actual traffic.

Oh and the folks that snap to defend Tesla even with these stupid moves ? Ask them if they own TSLA

 

[MP3Mike]

2. Blindspot for handling tight intersections. Think 4-way stop, one way streets, with parking on both sides. Go look at the layout in person. You know how you would lean your head forwards to make sure no cars are coming? Yeah, it can't do that. It's a shame really, 2 more camera's on the nose of the car would cover it. But the current NVIDIA system doesn't take 10 cameras.

But doesn't it already have a front facing wide angle camera that is placed further forward than you lean your head? (Sure a wider angle would be better, but I think it will be able to do OK.)

 

[AWDtsla]

But doesn't it already have a front facing wide angle camera that is placed further forward than you lean your head? (Sure a wider angle would be better, but I think it will be able to do OK.)

That what the website claims. But go stand in front of the car. There's no line of sight, it's obscured by the camera shroud.