Anyone else tired of the "anti" selling of M3?

[JeffK]

It does if you include the electric drivetrain, which IMO is the most important feature. And also happens to be a very expensive one. If you want a BEV with 300 miles of range, you've got to pay for a lot of batteries. Even 215 miles worth of batteries are not cheap.

Remember Elon has said the marginal cost of the Model S is around $30,000... There are other costs to consider, of course, but let that sink in.

 

[SageBrush]

However, it could still offer class-comparable features as paid options. Lacking them is problematic, even if one understands the above.

And then have people whine that a "comparably" equipped Tesla is more expensive than <xyz>

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And then have people whine that a "comparably" equipped Tesla is more expensive than <xyz>

They already are...

Or are you somehow against Tesla offering more functionality and comfort features in their cars?

And we haven't even broached the question of customizability. Model S/X are about as customizable as a basic Toyota. Model 3 price and size class cars from Audi and BMW offer far superior customization in colors, trims, materials...

It would be great for Tesla customers to have more options. I would welcome that, instead of fighting it as some seem to... oddly enough...

 

[anticitizen13.7]

I mean, you can buy an Audi A4 (same price group as Model 3) with HUD, Model S like graphical instrument cluster, ventilated seats, rear-seat entertainment system, electric trunk with motion sensing opening etc etc...

Again, having features on a spec sheet doesn't necessarily mean the features are actually useful or work well for the driver and occupants.

Some smartphones have face and eye recognition features that can be defeated with a photograph. I don't think the lack of face recognition unlock has hurt iPhone sales at all. From a product standpoint, features for the sake of filling a checklist vs. the competition is a mistake. The only reason to add a feature is if it actually improves the user experience. We won't know until the Model 3 is actually delivered whether its features are deficient or not.

Also, features may vary by geography. I customized a top tier Audi A4 at Audi's USA website and couldn't option an electric motion sensor opened trunk or RES.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Again, having features on a spec sheet doesn't necessarily mean the features are actually useful or work well for the driver and occupants.

Some smartphones have face and eye recognition features that can be defeated with a photograph. I don't think the lack of face recognition unlock has hurt iPhone sales at all. From a product standpoint, features for the sake of filling a checklist vs. the competition is a mistake. The only reason to add a feature is if it actually improves the user experience. We won't know until the Model 3 is actually delivered whether its features are deficient or not.

I would say for example Audi's features are, on average, very useful. I have certainly missed many on my Model S and Model X. And Model 3 is going to be even worse... I am not talking of facial unlock when I'm talking about a Model S like instrument cluster screen available for the driver. In fact, Audi's virtual cockpit is very good, arguably better than Tesla's. So there alone is one major functional feature Model 3 lacks even as an option, but Audi A4 offers.

Also, features may vary by geography. I customized a top tier Audi A4 at Audi's USA website and couldn't option an electric motion sensor opened trunk or RES.

I think the fair comparison for objective comparison is each car's home market - for obvious reasons. Thus I look at Germany for Audi. For subjective comparison, it of course matters what is available to you.

It is true that European premium car customers, who predominantly order from factory, are used to a wider range of customization for their cars than lot-buying Americans. Hence why Tesla's Toyota-like customization can be more of a shock to us, than for you perhaps.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

It is true that European premium car customers, who predominantly order from factory, are used to a wider range of customization for their cars than lot-buying Americans. Hence why Tesla's Toyota-like customization can be more of a shock to us, than for you perhaps.

This may be more Honda's fault than Toyota's. American cars (Ford, GM, FCA) were and still are to some extent customizable.

Honda Motor Co.'s philosophy was to simultaneously reduce consumer confusion and manufacturing costs by having only 3 or 4 levels of equipment packaging per car. They believed that options should be as minimal as possible and that features should be as invisible as possible, the maxim of "Man maximum, machine minimum". Many California-designed products appear to have inhereted tenants of Japanese thinking, including iPhones and Teslas.

It may be why Japanese cars have not had much success in Europe.

 

[sitter_k]

It would be great for Tesla customers to have more options. I would welcome that, instead of fighting it as some seem to... oddly enough...

I don't think many are f fighting it I just think many people are just Tesla apologists. If Tesla did offer more options even the people fighting it would welcome it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@anticitizen13.7 Interesting points, thanks.

As an anecdote, I should mention that when I got into Tesla in 2014, Model S actually had a fairly long list of options compared to today. Things like car alarm, tech package, parking sensors, many more trims etc. were separate compare to a Tesla of today. In this sense Tesla has become "more American" or "more Japanese"... they were going more in a German direction earlier on, I think...

An Audi/BMW/Mercedes Benz in Germany (and much of Europe) has something like, I don't know, 200 options for you to mix and match... Tesla today has something like 20.

 

[Big-T]

I know Tesla gives stock options to their employees, but wages are actually on the low side for the region. Will your average factory worker be getting a 75 kWh version or the base model? Or perhaps most of the early employee deliveries go to higher paid employees....

Kind of like in the 21st century version of company scrip where the miners getting scrip to buy only from the company store eh?

 

[AustinPowers]

Incidentally, I had a test drive of a Hyundai Ioniq BEV today, and I must admit I was quite taken by it.

It has a price tag similar to Model 3 but comes very well equipped.
There are only two optional extras (metallic paint and electric sunroof) as well as three trim versions. The base model is around 33K Euro, the middle trim is 35.5K Euro and the top of the line "Premium" model is 38K Euro. Even if you get the two optional extras mentioned above you still end up under 40K Euro all in. And that includes amenities like heated (and ventilated!) leather seats, hi-fi sound system, power folding heated side mirrors, rear-view camera, all kinds of driver assist features as well as around 150miles of real world range.
And 8years/200,000km warranty. (And Hyundai dealerships/service centers almost everywhere).

All in all, I would say for quite a few people over here that will be a real option if the Model 3 turns out to be less than what people expect.

 

[mhan00]

Doesn't the Ioniq only have an EPA range of 124 miles (which likely means a real world range of 100 miles)? Not really a Model 3 competitor. I have no idea where you got a real world range of 150 miles when the only thing I could find listed on their website was 124 miles EPA. Or does Europe get an Ioniq with a bigger battery than the US version?

 

[Gtosnipey]

Agreed to the OP! Thank you for writing this. I have been following the Model 3 for a long time now, I pre-ordered on day 1 and have been very excited. I think we all know the difference between the luxury S and the mainstream line M3, but give us a break! Yes not all of us have $80-100k to shell out for a nice model S and understand that with the M3 there will be differences. Same as between a Camry and Corolla. And so what a few rich people who might have bought an S are going to go for an M3, who cares!

At some point, they have to understand that their base is now shifting. It's not just very well off people anymore, everyday hard working middle/working class people can now afford a Tesla, and I don't think they need to constantly poop on the M3. I didn't follow the S or X so I am not sure what they did then, but I don't see any other companies doing this. I don't know if I have seen Apple go "Yeah the Macbook Air is a POS, it's not the Macbook Pro, just remember, it's not the pro. I mean the Air is ok but kinda sucks compared to the Pro. I mean the Macbook Air turns on, but it's not the Pro... ITS NOT THE PROOOOO." That's how I feel they are approaching the M3. We get the S is better, but I don't feel they have to constantly downplay its features. Just like my analogy, Apple pitches the features the Air DOES have, not what it doesn't.

I feel like with such entry level demand before it even came out, they weren't necessarily in a place where they needed to "get" customers. They didn't need to go out and really sell the M3, it sold itself without us even knowing what that meant. I feel like they are trying to un-sell people on the fence financially between an S now and an M3 later, and figure the rest of us are just going to stay with the M3 because we don't have the option to jump up to the next level, and they figure we won't abandon the chance to get a Telsa. Anyways, my thoughts, and hello community!!

 

[Mergoscia]

At TeslaBjorn one time is said by an European owner that he was amazed by the range of his Ioniq. But it definitly not 150 in miles, but somewhere around that mark in km.

 

[daniel]

Don't forget the goal posts can move on $35k. Sure they promised a 35k starting price, Tesla never said what that includes, i think you will find many standard features from other companies are going to be options and some will be flat out missing at launch, this with the sparse interior will put Tesla's brand "Electric so it's better" to the test.

Tesla needs to make the model s and 3 better not rely on its dominate position in EVs and call it a day. Good news is they got a great lead and some time before traditional car manufacturers catch up.

I kind of feel like a broken record here, but I'll say it again:

An electric drive train is expensive, primarily (I believe) due to the cost of batteries. Today, a $35K gas car will have more "features" than a $35K 200-plus-mile BEV. You just cannot put them side by side and complain that Tesla is skimping on features. I believe that the Model 3 will be without question the best BEV you can build for the money with that range. If you need or want more "features" you'll have to pay more. And for now that means a Model S, which is what Elon is saying when he makes the comparison that some here view as anti-selling.

Tesla only builds two car models today, with the Model 3 soon to become the third. So there's a big gap. Some day they'll have a model in between the two. Maybe even a cheaper model, though I gather that Elon has hinted they might leave the low-end market to others.

Tesla is not leaving out features in order to get people to cancel their reservations. They've committed to a $35K starting price and they're going to build the best car they can for the money. Lots of options complicates the manufacturing process, so they're only offering the ones they think there's enough of a market for to justify them. Maybe future model years will offer more options.

Personally, what I'd really like is a fully-featured Model S the size of a 1989 Honda Civic, and I'd pay whatever it cost. But there's no market for that, and Tesla has to build cars they can sell. And they have to build them within the budget of the price class. And that means the Model S is the one with lots of features, and the Model S is the basic BEV. I think it's unrealistic to expect the Model 3 (or even Model S) to have every imaginable feature as options. Give them time. There will be more cars with more options.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

At some point, they have to understand that their base is now shifting. It's not just very well off people anymore, everyday hard working middle/working class people can now afford a Tesla, and I don't think they need to constantly poop on the M3. I didn't follow the S or X so I am not sure what they did then, but I don't see any other companies doing this. I don't know if I have seen Apple go "Yeah the Macbook Air is a POS, it's not the Macbook Pro, just remember, it's not the pro. I mean the Air is ok but kinda sucks compared to the Pro. I mean the Macbook Air turns on, but it's not the Pro... ITS NOT THE PROOOOO." That's how I feel they are approaching the M3.

My observation is that it's more elements of the TMC community that are bashing the Model 3, not Tesla. Tesla is simply telling people what and what not to expect. All the drama about the display, HUD speculation, etc is entirely ginned up by people playing a guessing game based on 1 vague tweet from Elon about "spaceship" controls.

What Tesla actually said is this: Model S or Model 3

"Model 3 is smaller, simpler, and will come with far fewer options than Model S, but it makes driving feel effortless and offers a good range of at least 215 miles for our starting model."

Lower maximum range was known since last March.

Prior to the Model X launch, Tesla heavily "anti-sold" the X in order to keep S sales growing.

The MacBook Air comparison doesn't really match up, because the Air is a 5 year old product (with some internal upgrades over the years). It's not the future of Apple nor is it something people are lining up to reserve. If people order MacBook Airs, they can pick them up at the store today. Order a Model 3 today and Tesla can't get it to you for at least a year.

I feel like they are trying to un-sell people on the fence financially between an S now and an M3 later, and figure the rest of us are just going to stay with the M3 because we don't have the option to jump up to the next level, and they figure we won't abandon the chance to get a Telsa. Anyways, my thoughts, and hello community!!

This is exactly what Tesla is trying to do. A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. Tesla sells a Model S now, they get $$$ in 60 days. Tesla gets a Model 3 reservation and they won't collect for up to a year.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Musk continues to "anti-sell" Tesla Model 3, upgrade to latest Model S

No power lift gate??? How is that "premium"?

3rd parties are going to eat the model 3 up.

There will be an option for a power lift gate after you buy. Just save a little bit of money.

________

I doubt the Model 3 will come with Lambo doors on any upgrade, however - mine will have it - after I buy.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Also, many people want a smaller, simpler Tesla.

The Model S is huge. I don't want a huge car w' up to 7 seats, and I don't need 0-60 in 2.3s or even 4.5s. I hope that people don't get tripped up over which car is or isn't better. What matters most is which car is best for your requirements.

I drive an old Honda Civic. Wouldn't have bought anything else at the time.

 

[insaneoctane]

...A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. Tesla sells a Model S now, they get $$$ in 60 days. Tesla gets a Model 3 reservation and they won't collect for up to a year.

I do think it comes down to this.
The recently unveiled comparison clearly shows that someone who is not already on the waiting list is the issue, I think. New customers that come into the Tesla fold would have to wait for well over a year before tesla could sell them a car. It is the massive backlog of the model 3 that creates this mess (this, of course is a great problem to have). Just wish it didn't make us folks on the waiting list feel bad and I certainly hope it doesn't result in a lesser model 3 because of it....

 

[BluestarE3]

Just wish it didn't make us folks on the waiting list feel bad and I certainly hope it doesn't result in a lesser model 3 because of it....

Nah, I don't worry about keeping up with the Joneses. I know the Model S is a more capable and feature-rich car. Am I impressed by some of those gee-whiz features? Sure, just as I'm impressed with a mansion. However, I don't envy or desire either of them. So, I don't feed badly that the Model S, in Elon's words, will always be a better car than the Model 3. The Model 3 isn't a lesser car; it's exactly the car I want.

 

[SageBrush]

I also did not take Elon's or Tesla's messages as denigrating Model 3, but then I am not making an aspirational purchase. The Model 3 is exactly what I want and excellent value; Moreover, I'm extremely happy to send my money Tesla's way since I support their company policies and vision.