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It wasn't an analogy, it was a comparison. I was simply saying that smartphones still fail after years of refinement. To my point, 99.9% success rate on a smartphone is fine because when the 0.01% happens, all it results in is a minor annoyance and maybe a resetting of my phone. But when the 0.01% happens in AutoPilot, the stakes are much higher.
zmarty
Member
Probably because people are scared of it so much they actually pay more attention when driving? Correlation is not causation. The fact that people using AP get into less accidents does not mean AP is necessarily safer.
Sawyer8888
Member
Maybe it's luck that there haven't been more accidents with EAP? Doubtful, I know. Likely we are just all very attentive and are able to save ourselves and our car before catastrophe. But I am actually surprised that there haven't been more accidents while using EAP.
Just yesterday my car decided it was best to use the lane lines that had been scrapped off the road (slightly lighter than the road itself) instead of the more-defined white lane lines (solid on my left and dashed on my right). I kept my hands on the wheel, but my car would assume a very narrow lane as shown on my display, hugging one side and then the other. This put me very close to the plastic barriers on the left and then uncomfortably close to vehicles on my right. I disengaged EAP and waited until older lane lines were no longer present. Instances like this have been mentioned by others with EAP.
The increased red tape on the legal front may give Elon the time and excuse he needs to work out the kinks:
Zaphod
Galaxy President (former)
Sounds like you were in a construction zone which isn't really an ideal use case anyway.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I would venture to guess that a lot of those cases where EAP did "scary things" are either from a problem with that particular car, bad calibration or the driver misusing it.
d21mike
Active Member
That person was on 17.7.2. Current version is 17.36..... I think the Silky smooth was on 17.28... but not positive. The 7,27,36 represent the weeks of 2017. There are a lot of Youtube Videos that show the progress. Maybe will give people a better feel for the progress if they watch them. Some may comment on out dated experiences on older versions. Seems that the current versions are certainly improving. But still (and for some time to come) you should limit which roads you use some of the features.
I believe that EAP is well worth the cost. Most other manufactures charge for these features as well. When we got my wife Mercedes in 2016 the "advance" driving assist features were about $2800. Now I think you have to buy it as part of a feature pack that is much higher. I was looking at the Cadillac CT6 Super Cruise and you can not get that unless you get the most expensive CT6 Package.
I wonder if some manufactures (maybe Tesla) are pricing EAP/FSD type features out of reach of most customers so that the customer base will be smaller while they further develop the technology. I.E. Not just a way to increase profits.
Sportstick, you bring up some good points for discussion.
Your points are all valid, but on balance I think that an autonomous vehicle will compensate for the errors of existing and new inattentive drivers than it will create new inattentive drivers. I believe than many of us are like you - aware of the imperfections and aware that we need to keep eyes and mind on task. The autonomous system will make mistakes just as we all make mistakes, but with both the driver and the autonomous car backing each other up overall safety will be improved.
What does the best research show for typical awareness and response times for people driving vehicles that are not autonomous?
OK, but an alert driver should observe when the car starts to behave 'incorrectly'? I agree that some (many?) drivers are likely to not be paying sufficient attention, just as some don't pay sufficient attentionin their non-autonomous cars.Sportstick said:
Can't disagree, but drivers should look at it the other way around - takeover by driver from vehicle.Sportstick said:
Again the problem is with drivers who, as you say, exhibit these behaviors already in their non-autonomous cars. (Add putting on one's makeup to your list, by the way.)Sportstick said:
Your points are all valid, but on balance I think that an autonomous vehicle will compensate for the errors of existing and new inattentive drivers than it will create new inattentive drivers. I believe than many of us are like you - aware of the imperfections and aware that we need to keep eyes and mind on task. The autonomous system will make mistakes just as we all make mistakes, but with both the driver and the autonomous car backing each other up overall safety will be improved.
I suspect in at least some of the cases the car does something unexpected and it's scary so the driver takes over, but in the end EAP would have been able to avoid an actual accident. Computers can react quicker and with greater control than humans, and actually avoiding colliding with something using the ultrasonic sensors is more straightforward than larger driving tasks.
C141medic
Active Member
Exactly! Here's a quote from an autopilot (aircraft) article:
"The auto flying system does not fly the airplane," he said. "The pilots fly the plane through the automation."
Autopilot: What it can and can't do
How did a professional, national airline, such as Air France, miss that? What more can we expect of general population drivers?
Sawyer8888
Member
Exactly! Here's a quote from an autopilot (vehicle) article:
"Elon Musk wants you to take your hands off the wheel, foot off the gas, and let him do the driving. Rather, let his cars take over."
ELON MUSK SAYS EVERY NEW TESLA CAN DRIVE ITSELF
The YouTube video for the same article.
Granted, the article is clear about what Tesla's autopilot can and cannot do currently (Oct. '16). However, it's hype like this that give the impression that EAP is far more capable than it is.
Perhaps Elon and company previously said, "The auto-driving system does not drive the car. The driver drives the car through the automation." Maybe he did say that at some point. However that is certainly not the general perception of Tesla's autopilot IMO.
android04
Active Member
I will not be getting EAP because my daily commute is about 44 miles roundtrip on small town highways and roads with not a lot of traffic. And also I cannot currently trust EAP because I will be tempted to use my phone or fall asleep while driving and any mistake could be fatal.
Drone Flyer
Active Member
Keep n mind that FSD, if it ever comes, will only be limited to just above the speed limit, like AP is now.
So even if you are tired and want the car to get you home, it will be a very boring ride as there will be no fast acceleration or fast speeds.
I would still suggest to keep the car you have, if it's an earlier Tesla even with AP or not, and upgrade 5 or 6 years from now when we all have a better understanding of where FSD is heading. Pun intended!
Even in five or six years from now, I'm pretty darn sure FSD won't be completely implemented anyway. This isn't because of technology advancements, it's regulatory red tape that will slow this advancement to a crawl!
In my opinion, It's not until every vehicle on the road has FSD that it will be allowed. This is 20 years away, at least!
Sawyer8888
Member
While I can't say I particular love AP, I felt your comment about the speed limitation required some clarification:
Keep n mind that FSD, if it ever comes, will only be limited to just above the speed limit [on non-divided roadways and even some that are divided], like AP is now.
In my experience with AP1 loaners, this first version always worked much better in this regard, usually not placing a cap on the speed when enabled on most roads. Right now AP2/EAP is more restrictive on side roads than AP1, however you can still max out EAP at 90 in a 65 on the highway if you choose to do so.
I do agree that FSD may be a ways off based on all the delays and the step back that AP2 is compared to AP1.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I don't see this as a big issue. I want to drive safely and get home safely, not go on a joy ride.
I am more optimistic about FSD. I think Tesla will start rolling out some FSD features in 1-2 years. Regulatory approval takes longer but I think there will be pressure to fast track approval once legislators see the the benefits and that the tech works.
That is completely unrealistic. You realize how long it would take to replace every car in the US with FSD cars? A lot more than 20 years. Plus, it is not necessary. You don't need every car to be FSD for it to work. As long as FSD is safe, it can be put into new cars. No, FSD will be allowed much sooner than that.
Sawyer8888
Member
I don't think Elon could say the same.
I know what you're trying to say through your sarcasm, however isn't that one of the points of this forum? Owners and non-owners expressing their opinions are intended to help everyone, including non-owners form their own opinions. There is quite a bit of negativity on TMC directed toward Tesla. I don't think it's coming from only a select few.
Perhaps the select few that you speak of are swaying the thoughts of some non-owners. I'm not sure who is actually tracking these stats (sarcasm). A select few can be awfully nasty, but there are many more that are just trying to be critical, yet helpful.
This thread in particular is a non-owner asking for the opinions of others. It sounds like they are asking for other non-owners to chime in on whether or not they will purchase EAP. Those other non-owners have to form their opinions somehow, and not just based on Tesla's marketing of EAP and all the satisfied customers on TMC.
If I come across what appears to be a misinformed non-owner, I sometimes reply with a correction or my own opinion. IMO this is more constructive than sarcastically saying that you like seeing a non-owner's perspective, when in fact you really don't.
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10 yard penalty for misplaced sarcasm. The issue has nothing to do with Tesla and everything to do with rejecting the trend toward autonomous vehicles in total, no matter the manufacturer.
Sawyer8888
Member
Using EAP in a construction zone is definitely not wise, especially if there are active workers and reduced speed limits posted. This is just another example of EAPs current limitations. Although IMO (I always have to preface with an "IMO" if I think I may be going out on a limb) the system should be able to differentiate between lane lines that have recently been removed and actual, very clear lane lines - construction zone or not.
