Interesting, a smaller wheel should require more force, but the steering rack on the 3 is totally different, and possibly more sensitive.
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AutoPilot Buddy now officially banned in USA!
- Thread starter MelaniainLA
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Interesting, a smaller wheel should require more force, but the steering rack on the 3 is totally different, and possibly more sensitive.
The other thing I could think of is that the Model 3 is a little more bumpier without air suspension, so the hand will wiggle more with a little jerk here and there on the freeway.
Xminus6
Member
Right. I understand how it detects hands on the wheel but it’s a very poorly engineered solution. It limits you to holding the wheel in a very specific way, which isn’t realistic over the course of an 8 hour drive. I find it more tiring to “hold onto the wheel” by AP standards than just driving and utilizing the wheel. When you’re in AP you’re constantly in the narrow Venn diagram intersection between 1) holding tight enough and in the right location to be sensed, 2) holding loosely enough to not disengage AP, and 3) using your own muscle power to hold your arms in a position where you’re right in the middle.
You can’t place your hands top-dead-center of the wheel because it won’t sense them. You can’t hold the wheel from the bottom because it won’t sense them. If you hold the wheel TOO symmetrically it won’t sense them. You have to constantly jiggle the wheel or try to slightly steer the car off course. Bad solutions all around.
Was also put in auto-pilot jail for holding with one hand over a 2 hour trip. Luckily it was 10 minutes from the destination so I didn't make an extra stop to get out of jail. I do find it much more annoying than original. I constantly am doing drives where it beeps at me once or twice.
On a side note, on a very long stretch I swear I had 4 different beeps of not using enough force but I didn't get put in jail. Is there some time reset between warnings?
On a side note, on a very long stretch I swear I had 4 different beeps of not using enough force but I didn't get put in jail. Is there some time reset between warnings?
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I still think you're not quite seeing how it works. It really doesn't matter where you hold your hands.. it matters that it senses resistance against the torque it is generating on its own while steering the car. As long as you're supplying a sufficient amount of counter-torque (regardless of where your hands actually are), that should be enough to indicate you're holding the wheel.
On AP cruising on the highway, I hold the wheel with two fingers at the 6 o'clock position, and as long as I provide enough counter-torque, the nags stay away. Sometimes I have to jiggle it a little (again, with my two fingers) when a warning pops up, but it goes away. Perfectly comfortable position.
What I'm getting at is that it doesn't "sense" your hands at all. You don't have to hold "tight" or "loose". All it senses torque applied to the wheel. Which is why Autopilot buddy works (or used to work) -- it keeps a constant counter-torque applied fooling AP into thinking you're holding the wheel.
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Xminus6
Member
Like I said, I know how it works. My point is that the leverage of your hands doesn't provide enough resistance unless it's in specific places. A weight resting at the top or bottom doesn't have the same rotational resistance as a weight placed on the side and under the effects of gravity with no support under it, which is why Autopilot Buddy hangs off the side of the wheel.
I had both of my xxl-glove-sized hands on top of the wheel and it constantly nagged me. What it really needs is a combination of torque sensing, weight sensing and either capacitive or pressure-sensing. Torque sensing alone is not sufficient. There's no excuse for the car to constantly nag me to hold the wheel (or "apply light force to the wheel" as they now call it) when I'm holding on to the wheel 99.9% of the time. No matter what mechanism they're using to detect hands on wheel, it's simply not working as it should if it's doing that. They engineered it to sense "hands on wheel" in a very specific way. But not everyone drives long distance holding the wheel that exact way. In fact, most people probably use some different posture for long drives because it's too tiring to hold your hands up all the time, especially if you're not actually steering the car with your hands.
My point of holding it tightly or loosely wasn't about the wheel sensing pressure, it was about the amount of pressure needed to keep your hands on the wheel but affecting its turning force only enough to be "sensed" but not resisting the wheel so much that it would disengage. I contend that having to use a counterweight is a terrible solution for a problem that they're creating. Basically you're saying that you have to always steer the car slightly off course for it to stop nagging you. That's not an elegant solution.
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HankLloydRight
No Roads
Ok, I see what you're saying, but I still think you're over-thinking it.
No, not that. What I do is hold the wheel with a little pressure so I always know what the car is doing or wanting to do, so if I have to take over suddenly, my hand or hands are on the wheel with a medium grip (for instance if I feel it suddenly jerk one way or another due to the car sensing something that's not there or taking the wrong lane).
It's usually my right hand resting on my right leg holding the bottom of the wheel. As the AP turns the wheel either way ever so slightly, I'll hold the wheel and give it some resistive torque against the direction it wants to turn (but not too much to disengage). This is usually enough to keep AP happy. Once in a while it's not enough and gives me a nag, and I jiggle the wheel a little bit. I'm not applying constant force against the torque (steering off-course), but just enough for it to know there's some resistance there and that I'm paying attention.
No, not that. What I do is hold the wheel with a little pressure so I always know what the car is doing or wanting to do, so if I have to take over suddenly, my hand or hands are on the wheel with a medium grip (for instance if I feel it suddenly jerk one way or another due to the car sensing something that's not there or taking the wrong lane).
It's usually my right hand resting on my right leg holding the bottom of the wheel. As the AP turns the wheel either way ever so slightly, I'll hold the wheel and give it some resistive torque against the direction it wants to turn (but not too much to disengage). This is usually enough to keep AP happy. Once in a while it's not enough and gives me a nag, and I jiggle the wheel a little bit. I'm not applying constant force against the torque (steering off-course), but just enough for it to know there's some resistance there and that I'm paying attention.
Xminus6
Member
Yes. I've tried that as well. I think there might be some differences between the different models of how they respond to torque resistance. On my Model X I can keep my hands down at the 6 o clock position and GRAB the wheel with my thumbs, preventing rotation, and it will still nag me. The only explanation for the differing experiences from different drivers is that the cars might be reacting differently. I'd be interested to see if Models S, X and 3 owners with AP have differing levels of complaints about the nags. We've had an S pre-AP, and we have a 3 without AP. So my only experience with AP2.0 and above has been my Model X. Like I said, on the trip this last weekend it was so irritating as to be nearly useless. It took more attention to have AutoSteer on than it did off, and that's on the dead-straight sections of I-5.
Sir Guacamolaf
The good kind of fat
I have a suggestion - it may not mean much but it is all we can do.
Email and call Tesla. Let them know that you are unhappy that the damn thing nags even with hands on the wheel.
Email and call Tesla. Let them know that you are unhappy that the damn thing nags even with hands on the wheel.
Nah, I will just buy a #1776 and get the EAP system I thought I purchased in the first place. This whole system is about liability. I recognize that I am driving and liable.
I am a big boy, and I wear my big boy pants so it's OK.
Sir Guacamolaf
The good kind of fat
I see your point, but it feels unfair. It feels unfair to have paid for something, promised something, and then you having to spend on something else to get that.
Wow. You do realize that that all this device does is invite more of the "idiots" you mentioned to crash their cars while harming themselves and others?
When Tesla released this feature it was a first for the automotive industry and they assumed that customers would use the feature in a responsible way. When it was evident some did not, they introduced additional safety measures to make it more likely that customers would use Autopilot in a responsible way. Tesla continues to refine how Autopilot is implemented and used to maximize the safety of customers and save lives.
Your moral equivalency of Tesla working to keep customer safe and save lives with a tool whose whole purpose in life is to bypass said safety measures reminds me of the absence of common sense, facts, and logic prevalent in some corners society these days.
Tesla should be commended for how much they have done to advance autonomous and semi autonomous driving technologies but with the advancements comes great responsibility to ensure the software is used as designed. If a bunch of more people crashed their cars while not paying attention, none of us will have Autopilot any more.
Remy: People will Die!
Got the 1776, and it basically doesn't work. I still get constant nags. I realize it's "not an Autopilot Buddy" but we all know it is, and it just doesn't work. I'm trying to add more weight to it with wheel weights.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Nope, it still works with a static weight (2 heavy sockets and a velcro zip tie). It's just that the autopilot buddy isn't heavy enough.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Other devices might still work, but I stand by my original statement that Tesla has outsmarted Autopilot Buddy.
Not that there were much smarts there to begin with.
Not that there were much smarts there to begin with.
There is no difference between an autopilot buddy and the same weight strapped to the steering wheel. It’s just physics, torque to be precise. The computer can’t tell a difference. The only thing Tesla could have done is increase the force necessary to override the nag.Other devices might still work, but I stand by my original statement that Tesla has outsmarted Autopilot Buddy.
Not that there were much smarts there to begin with.
Tesla could have added a filter/ detector to ignore a highly constant torque value (bonus points if it analyzes torque vs steering angle also).
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