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The original argument to which I responded is a classical rhetorical maneuver known as the fallacy of relative privation ("I've had it worse, so you can't complain"). Argumentation aimed primarily at stifling dissent or self-aggrandizement (only the former seems intended here).
I've been following Tesla for several years, and following TMC closely for a few months, and, even allowing for the typical extreme bias of internet forums, it's still clear to me that Tesla's reputation for outstanding customer service has taken some serious hits over the past several months (center console, P85D HP, tire rotations in annual service, the "extended warranty" contractual language, slippage in Model X schedule, abridgment of the Ranger service offering, arguable slippage in auto-pilot features, etc.). None of them in themselves is earth-shattering, but taken as a pattern, they are concerning. Given that automobiles are practically a luxury in themselves in this day and age, and luxury automobiles are one by definition, the last thing a company like Tesla needs is to be a company whose products you buy in spite of their reputation for dealing with customers.
I agree, Tesla is a "Grand Experiment" -- and the reason that people will vote with their wallets to go along is if they get something they can't get elsewhere. You've got to nurture and foster that passionate early adopter base, not take them for granted or signal that when you "grow up" as a company you won't treat them any better than anyone else does.
For me, I was pretty much totally sold on Tesla's grand vision a few months ago. Now, I'm more unsure than I was then, and I expected the opposite. I'm still more inclined to buy than not, but I've got some reservations now -- ones I didn't have a few months ago, about how Tesla will treat me as an owner.
It's fine to belittle potential buyers, telling them to "go buy a ford", or "if you have concerns, then Tesla is not for you," but that kind of parochial attitude will not lead to Tesla's vision coming to pass. It would, if carried to its logical extreme, cause it to die in the cradle.
And that would be a shame.
Yep, agree with everyone here and you. An excellent refutation of my post and salient argument for the original notion. Well thought out, clear and uncluttered by emotion and bombastic assertions.The original argument to which I responded is a classical rhetorical maneuver known as the fallacy of relative privation ("I've had it worse, so you can't complain"). Argumentation aimed primarily at stifling dissent or self-aggrandizement (only the former seems intended here).
I've been following Tesla for several years, and following TMC closely for a few months, and, even allowing for the typical extreme bias of internet forums, it's still clear to me that Tesla's reputation for outstanding customer service has taken some serious hits over the past several months (center console, P85D HP, tire rotations in annual service, the "extended warranty" contractual language, slippage in Model X schedule, abridgment of the Ranger service offering, arguable slippage in auto-pilot features, etc.). None of them in themselves is earth-shattering, but taken as a pattern, they are concerning. Given that automobiles are practically a luxury in themselves in this day and age, and luxury automobiles are one by definition, the last thing a company like Tesla needs is to be a company whose products you buy in spite of their reputation for dealing with customers.
I agree, Tesla is a "Grand Experiment" -- and the reason that people will vote with their wallets to go along is if they get something they can't get elsewhere. You've got to nurture and foster that passionate early adopter base, not take them for granted or signal that when you "grow up" as a company you won't treat them any better than anyone else does.
For me, I was pretty much totally sold on Tesla's grand vision a few months ago. Now, I'm more unsure than I was then, and I expected the opposite. I'm still more inclined to buy than not, but I've got some reservations now -- ones I didn't have a few months ago, about how Tesla will treat me as an owner.
It's fine to belittle potential buyers, telling them to "go buy a ford", or "if you have concerns, then Tesla is not for you," but that kind of parochial attitude will not lead to Tesla's vision coming to pass. It would, if carried to its logical extreme, cause it to die in the cradle.
And that would be a shame.
I am only saying I wouldn't pay for the "feature" if it wasn't available at the time of delivery.
It seems this place can be quite hostile towards people who disagree with the "hive".
I've been following Tesla for several years, and following TMC closely for a few months, and, even allowing for the typical extreme bias of internet forums, it's still clear to me that Tesla's reputation for outstanding customer service has taken some serious hits over the past several months (center console, P85D HP, tire rotations in annual service, the "extended warranty" contractual language, slippage in Model X schedule, abridgment of the Ranger service offering, arguable slippage in auto-pilot features, etc.). None of them in themselves is earth-shattering, but taken as a pattern, they are concerning. Given that automobiles are practically a luxury in themselves in this day and age, and luxury automobiles are one by definition, the last thing a company like Tesla needs is to be a company whose products you buy in spite of their reputation for dealing with customers.
The original argument to which I responded is a classical rhetorical maneuver known as the fallacy of relative privation ("I've had it worse, so you can't complain"). Argumentation aimed primarily at stifling dissent or self-aggrandizement (only the former seems intended here).
I've been following Tesla for several years, and following TMC closely for a few months, and, even allowing for the typical extreme bias of internet forums, it's still clear to me that Tesla's reputation for outstanding customer service has taken some serious hits over the past several months (center console, P85D HP, tire rotations in annual service, the "extended warranty" contractual language, slippage in Model X schedule, abridgment of the Ranger service offering, arguable slippage in auto-pilot features, etc.). None of them in themselves is earth-shattering, but taken as a pattern, they are concerning. Given that automobiles are practically a luxury in themselves in this day and age, and luxury automobiles are one by definition, the last thing a company like Tesla needs is to be a company whose products you buy in spite of their reputation for dealing with customers.
I agree, Tesla is a "Grand Experiment" -- and the reason that people will vote with their wallets to go along is if they get something they can't get elsewhere. You've got to nurture and foster that passionate early adopter base, not take them for granted or signal that when you "grow up" as a company you won't treat them any better than anyone else does.
For me, I was pretty much totally sold on Tesla's grand vision a few months ago. Now, I'm more unsure than I was then, and I expected the opposite. I'm still more inclined to buy than not, but I've got some reservations now -- ones I didn't have a few months ago, about how Tesla will treat me as an owner.
It's fine to belittle potential buyers, telling them to "go buy a ford", or "if you have concerns, then Tesla is not for you," but that kind of parochial attitude will not lead to Tesla's vision coming to pass. It would, if carried to its logical extreme, cause it to die in the cradle.
And that would be a shame.
I can't tell you how many times I've been attacked for simply stating my opinion when it did not agree with the Kool Aid packet.
I can't tell you how many times I've been attacked for simply stating my opinion when it did not agree with the Kool Aid packet.
Is this an example of you 'simply stating (your) opinion'? With the derogatory remark and intention included. Either you don't care how you come across, or something else (which the forum rules do not allow me to say).
Ever considered being a full time complaint writer? I have tons of ideas.
Extremely well said... I couldn't (and didn't) have said it better myself! This is exactly where I find myself.
Is this an example of you 'simply stating (your) opinion'? With the derogatory remark and intention included. Either you don't care how you come across, or something else (which the forum rules do not allow me to say).
Agreed.
When people start tossing out "fan boy" comments and the like, they immediately just come across as bitter and immature to me. Hard to empathize with someone who is always taking shots and constantly being negative. Regardless of how others on TMC might have behaved towards them, acting the same will net you nothing. In fact, as some of these individuals try to act like they are above it all, playing the same game just proves they aren't.
What defines a fan boy or a kool aid mentality? I'm sure in this instance most who use the terms really mean certain individuals who are perceived as overly aggressive and so loyal in the defense of Tesla that they can see no problems. However, when they use it like this, it comes off as painting anybody and everybody with a dissenting opinion as a zealot.
Perhaps some of us believe that some of the posters complaining had unrealistic expectations or just have an sense of entitlement that is impossible to realistically satisfy. I wonder if these folks would honestly want themselves as a customer if the situation were reversed.
Usual disclaimers: No, not everyone who complains is unrealistic. I am not picking on any one individual, YMMV, etc, etc.
I wonder if these folks would honestly want themselves as a customer if the situation were reversed.
I think Elon Musk is far shrewder than we give him credit. I fully believe that this long term "bait and switch" was part of Tesla's plan from the outset. I use the term "bait and switch" to make a point, not to imply some kind of legal issue. Tesla promised early customers a lot of things that are now being taken away, especially for those who live an inconvenient distance from their nearest service center. Musk enacted certain policies back then because that's what it took to get customers to buy. Now that Tesla has plenty of sales, Musk has no apprehension about changing policies on those early owners now that he no longer needs them.
I'm confident that all of the recent service and policy changes came from Musk, or if they didn't, were certainly approved by him. He moves the puck according to Tesla's immediate needs, not according to the needs of Tesla's existing ownership base. You cannot count on any promise he makes because he will most likely back away from it when it is no longer convenient for Tesla. I can draw no other conclusion from what has happened in the last 6-12 months.
Perhaps. But when I'm wrong with one of my customers - first, I own it. Next, I make it right with them. Rarely is a "full refund" required to turn things around. Usually a tangible gesture that makes the customer feel heard is all that is necessary to repair and preserve the business relationship.I agree with most of what you said. A lot of the features that were so wonderful for the early adopters were a ploy to get them to buy, and now that it's no longer sustainable, they're pulling the plug.
I don't think AP was part of that, I think that he thought they'd be able to finish it up before delivers. Boy was he wrong....
Perhaps. But when I'm wrong with one of my customers - first, I own it. Next, I make it right with them. Rarely is a "full refund" required to turn things around. Usually a tangible gesture that makes the customer feel heard is all that is necessary to repair and preserve the business relationship.
Perhaps. But when I'm wrong with one of my customers - first, I own it. Next, I make it right with them. Rarely is a "full refund" required to turn things around. Usually a tangible gesture that makes the customer feel heard is all that is necessary to repair and preserve the business relationship.
I was just thinking.. What if worst case scenario plays out and they're actually not going to release AP for legal reasons.. Totally believable that Tesla overlooked the legal implications of rolling out Level 3 "fully autonomous" feature set. But the fact that it's included in a fresh set of marketing materials for Model X is encouraging. Plus the tweet from Elon saying "almost ready" which was over a month ago. If we're 2 months from that tweet and AP is still not released that's totally ridiculous. Plus the Model X shipments by end of Sept. And the Sept 9 late show appearance. I call end of Sept their drop dead date.. All signs point to a release this month