Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

[Peter Lucas]

Full charge range displayed may not be indicative of real range or real battery capacity. Usually the displayed range conceals battery degradation. But maybe in your case it is the other way around. In any event, you might want to compare your actual range now to your actual range before. You can use your battery % display to extrapolate, For example, if you drive 100 miles and your battery goes from 80% to 30%, then: 100 / (.8-.3) equals 200 miles of full charge range.
By the way, my 2016 90D has a real full charge range of 190-200 miles. And the displayed full charge range is 270 miles. So, full charge range displayed may not be indicative of real range or real battery capacity.

 

[Ralbright]

No, ICE OEMs use rebuilt engines, not new ones, in warranty repairs if they have them available, which they almost always do.

I’ve had firsthand experience with a ford F-450 that had an engine failure within the powertrain warranty. A new OEM shortblock was used in my case.

I’m aware that this isn’t always the case, but at any rate an OEM rebuilt engine is still a NEW engine and will perform as such. And if it doesn’t ( let’s say it burns a quart of oil a week) the manufacture would stand behind it no questions asked.

 

[SSedan]

I have never heard of an OEM using a remanufactured engine for a warranty repair.
Even if they did those are remanufactured and if down 15% on power or economy would be considered defective.

 

[robertmanning]

It was on

How current was the software in the car before the warranty repair?
Wonder if the battery is equal but you got battergated

It was on 2020.8 when the battery failed. I actually had just installed the update the day the battery failed.

 

[robertmanning]

Full charge range displayed may not be indicative of real range or real battery capacity. Usually the displayed range conceals battery degradation. But maybe in your case it is the other way around. In any event, you might want to compare your actual range now to your actual range before. You can use your battery % display to extrapolate, For example, if you drive 100 miles and your battery goes from 80% to 30%, then: 100 / (.8-.3) equals 200 miles of full charge range.
By the way, my 2016 90D has a real full charge range of 190-200 miles. And the displayed full charge range is 270 miles. So, full charge range displayed may not be indicative of real range or real battery capacity.

I’ll try that. The only problem with that is that real world range and rated range differ too greatly because of temperature, tires, terrain, etc. I get that I’m not going to get the same range in 70 degree weather vs. 30 degree weather.

The problem is this. They just replaced my battery. The rates range at 100% is lower than my previous rated range at 90%. That’s a problem.

Tesla service called me today after I sent an email to a couple of people and gave me the run around saying there is no “real” range for the car.

I recorded the conversation so I’ll link it when I can. It’s quite comical. The guy was clearly going off of a script because he lost his place once.

I told him where I received the information for the range of the 60 battery. I told him off Tesla’s website. He said that he wasn’t familiar (he said that) but any number on their website is an EPA number and not their number. So I asked what their number was and he said that he didn’t know/there isn’t one.

So I asked what number Tesla bases 70% of their original battery capacity for their current warranty. He said that he wasn’t aware of that warranty.

I can’t make this up. It’s unbelievable.

He then mentioned that the number I was seeing was based on my driving style. I told him that the battery had been in the car a day. It doesn’t know my driving style. He told me to wait six months to a year for the battery to really show a correct number.

I then posed the question that if I bought a new Tesla that was rated at a certain mileage and I got the car and the dash showed thirty to forty miles below that mileage would he see that as a problem?

he didn’t answer and started talking in circles.

I don’t expect the battery to say 208. But I don’t expect it to say 173. No one would.

and if it says 173 at 100% and my previous battery was higher than that at 90%, there is a problem.

He then said that he did a remote check and the battery was fine.

 

[ucmndd]

I have never heard of an OEM using a remanufactured engine for a warranty repair.

Every single one of them does this. All of them.

 

[aerodyne]

I’ll try that. The only problem with that is that real world range and rated range differ too greatly because of temperature, tires, terrain, etc. I get that I’m not going to get the same range in 70 degree weather vs. 30 degree weather.

The problem is this. They just replaced my battery. The rates range at 100% is lower than my previous rated range at 90%. That’s a problem.

Tesla service called me today after I sent an email to a couple of people and gave me the run around saying there is no “real” range for the car.

I recorded the conversation so I’ll link it when I can. It’s quite comical. The guy was clearly going off of a script because he lost his place once.

I told him where I received the information for the range of the 60 battery. I told him off Tesla’s website. He said that he wasn’t familiar (he said that) but any number on their website is an EPA number and not their number. So I asked what their number was and he said that he didn’t know/there isn’t one.

So I asked what number Tesla bases 70% of their original battery capacity for their current warranty. He said that he wasn’t aware of that warranty.

I can’t make this up. It’s unbelievable.

He then mentioned that the number I was seeing was based on my driving style. I told him that the battery had been in the car a day. It doesn’t know my driving style. He told me to wait six months to a year for the battery to really show a correct number.

I then posed the question that if I bought a new Tesla that was rated at a certain mileage and I got the car and the dash showed thirty to forty miles below that mileage would he see that as a problem?

he didn’t answer and started talking in circles.

I don’t expect the battery to say 208. But I don’t expect it to say 173. No one would.

and if it says 173 at 100% and my previous battery was higher than that at 90%, there is a problem.

He then said that he did a remote check and the battery was fine.

I would suggest get a adapter cable, canbus reader and an App like SMT to see exactly what the usable capacity of your so called new battery is.

If it is not equal or greater than the old battery, time to escalate.

 

[robertmanning]

I would suggest get a adapter cable, canbus reader and an App like SMT to see exactly what the usable capacity of your so called new battery is.

If it is not equal or greater than the old battery, time to escalate.

I did some math and I need some help to check my math. Been awhile.

So when my wife came home from Tesla with the new battery, the capacity went from 88% to 62%. This is a 26% decrease. She started with 157 miles on the dash at 88% and ended with 109 miles on the dash at 62%. She drove 48.8 miles. 157 miles - 109 miles is 48 miles. So that is consistent. In that time she used 12.1kWh of total energy.

A 60kWh battery losing 26% of its capacity should use 15.6kWh of energy, not 12.1kWh. A 46.5kWh battery losing 26% of its capacity would use 12.1kWh of total energy.

When I charged to 100% that night, I did the math again.

At 100% the dash read 173 miles. I drove 20.6 miles and the dash read 88% at 153 miles. Again the dash readout is consistent.

Over the distance of 20.6 miles the car used 5.4kWh of total energy which is consistent for a 45kWh battery not a 60kWh battery. For a 60kWh battery to use 12% of its capacity, it would need to use 7.2kWh of total energy.

I don't expect a 60kWh battery to have 60kWh available although I've heard Tesla say it does, BUT to have 45 to 46kWh capacity in a replacement battery is beyond unacceptable. It is ridiculous that they replaced my defective pack with this pack that they say is fine.

Any math help with this is appreciated.

 

[ucmndd]

The math doesn’t matter. The only thing relevant here is the new battery has significantly less capacity and range than the battery they replaced. You should start thinking about how you’re going to prove that.

 

[robertmanning]

Full charge range displayed may not be indicative of real range or real battery capacity. Usually the displayed range conceals battery degradation. But maybe in your case it is the other way around. In any event, you might want to compare your actual range now to your actual range before. You can use your battery % display to extrapolate, For example, if you drive 100 miles and your battery goes from 80% to 30%, then: 100 / (.8-.3) equals 200 miles of full charge range.
By the way, my 2016 90D has a real full charge range of 190-200 miles. And the displayed full charge range is 270 miles. So, full charge range displayed may not be indicative of real range or real battery capacity.

Thank you for this because it helped me calculate (I think) the capacity of the battery I received. I know displayed range and real range are never necessarily equivalent and always change depending on driving style, weather, AC use, heat use, weight, tires, etc.

That was never my argument. If your full charge range says 270 miles and you drive 100 miles and you use 50% of your battery and you look at your total energy used, it should tell you your current capacity. I don't know if your 90D was new when you bought it and what the range said when it was new.

 

[robertmanning]

The math doesn’t matter. The only thing relevant here is the new battery has significantly less capacity and range than the battery they replaced. You should start thinking about how you’re going to prove that.

That's why the math matters.

And I don't need to prove significantly. I need to prove equal to.

Anyone that can help check the math before I escalate would be appreciated.

Thx

 

[aerodyne]

They may still try to argue driving style is affecting the range. That is why I suggest to get a reader. Of course, they can run diagnostics and see the same thing off of the Canbus.

SMT shows "Nominal pack, usable pack" plus a trip function that records all the trip parameters including eff and KwH used.

Checked your math, seems to be you have 45-46 KwH useable. But as ucmdd said, you need to prove it. For instance there is a buffer to the pack, so you don't ever have the full 60 KwH available. The reader will prove this.

 

[aerodyne]

Did some digging and a 60 pack should have 61 KwH nominal, and 58.5 KwH usable.

 

[terryna]

They owe you a battery at least as good as the one they replaced, but not necessarily as good as new.

+1

 

[robertmanning]

They may still try to argue driving style is affecting the range. That is why I suggest to get a reader. Of course, they can run diagnostics and see the same thing off of the Canbus.

SMT shows "Nominal pack, usable pack" plus a trip function that records all the trip parameters including eff and KwH used.

Checked your math, seems to be you have 45-46 KwH useable. But as ucmdd said, you need to prove it. For instance there is a buffer to the pack, so you don't ever have the full 60 KwH available. The reader will prove this.

thank you for both posts. Very helpful.

 

[robertmanning]

Thank you everyone for your help. I called today and left a message. I will keep everyone posted.

I know I’m in Florida till the end of the month at least. I have to get this resolved before we have to drive back to NYC.

I will ask for social media help this weekend. Gonna tweet Elon right now.

This is the worst time for this to happen because the last thing on people’s minds is to help a guy with a Tesla. People are worried about keeping their jobs.

Because of that, I really do appreciate the responses.

Rob

 

[MP3Mike]

I did some math and I need some help to check my math. Been awhile.

So when my wife came home from Tesla with the new battery, the capacity went from 88% to 62%. This is a 26% decrease. She started with 157 miles on the dash at 88% and ended with 109 miles on the dash at 62%. She drove 48.8 miles. 157 miles - 109 miles is 48 miles. So that is consistent. In that time she used 12.1kWh of total energy.

A 60kWh battery losing 26% of its capacity should use 15.6kWh of energy, not 12.1kWh. A 46.5kWh battery losing 26% of its capacity would use 12.1kWh of total energy.

The first thing you have to remember is that the trip meter doesn't report 100% of the energy used/lost. So you really can't use it to calculate battery capacity.

What matters is what was your range at a given charge percentage with the old battery was just prior to it failing and what is the range at that same charge percentage with the new battery. (Preferably those numbers would be at/above 90%.)

So what was your reported range at 90% shortly before the battery failed? (How much higher was it than what your current battery reports?)

And do you have proof to show Tesla, or the arbitrator if necessary, to get Tesla to honor their warranty. (Since ~17% degradation after 6 years is not entirely unreasonable on its own.)

 

[Silicon Desert]

This is a rather interesting thread. A month ago, I had to replace the battery pack on my son's 2006 Toyota hybrid. Yes, I know it is a hybrid and not a direct comparison, however, my point is that the Toyota dealer wanted a ton of money to replace it and my son would have to wait 2 weeks for them to get one. On top of that, it would be warranted for only 1 year. So, I called a 3rd party company with high ratings that comes out to the house and replace the battery. Within 2 hours of calling on a Sunday morning, they came out and replaced the battery. It cost 1/3 the price of the Toyota quote, and the warranty is unlimited mileage for as long as he owns the car. Imagine that.
I'm not suggesting a 3rd party company can help you. The thread just reminded me of a recent experience with his hybrid.

 

[aerodyne]

This is a rather interesting thread. A month ago, I had to replace the battery pack on my son's 2006 Toyota hybrid. Yes, I know it is a hybrid and not a direct comparison, however, my point is that the Toyota dealer wanted a ton of money to replace it and my son would have to wait 2 weeks for them to get one. On top of that, it would be warranted for only 1 year. So, I called a 3rd party company with high ratings that comes out to the house and replace the battery. Within 2 hours of calling on a Sunday morning, they came out and replaced the battery. It cost 1/3 the price of the Toyota quote, and the warranty is unlimited mileage for as long as he owns the car. Imagine that.
I'm not suggesting a 3rd party company can help you. The thread just reminded me of a recent experience with his hybrid.

Last year, I had a very similar experience replacing the HV pack on a 2003 Prius.

Only have an 18 month warranty, but the gas mileage went up 10%.

The problem I see is Tesla is not going to be very helpful to 3rd party repair options. However, a lot of bright folks in this community, and if there is a need, someone will find a way to fill it.

 

[Silicon Desert]

yes, I was thinking that as well. I hope for the day that there are several 3rd party choices while realizing that a Tesla pack is not as easy to replace as a hybrid battery which I could have done for my son by myself if I were down in his neck of the woods.