Battery Replaced Under Warranty - 30+ miles below rated range

[Battpower]

very small declines of displayed full charge range,

So is it common knowledge how the range shown on the IC is calculated? From my experience and what I have seen of others', this range figure really is a kind of dream figure. At first I assumed (like my other ev's) this range would reflect my driving style, recorded ambient temperature, maybe averaged for current trip counter distance. Then I read / saw that it just shows pretty much the same figure at a certain % battery soc. In fact, just like an ICE gas gauge, taking nothing into account of my driving style or tyre pressures, hills etc. The range on the energy display seems possibly different in that it is at least trying to link this journey, and actual energy remaining in the battery to the particular journey I am on.

Makes no sense at all to me to show a range figure that really does not try to take reality into account. On a cold day, if my battery (eq. gas tank) shrinks and my range is reduced, I should see a reduced range somewhere.

Over winter, the IC range display on my Renault drops to 130 miles (40kwh battery). In summer, it creeps up to over 200 miles which ties in with the 5 miles per kwh that is also reported. Over winter the mpkwh drops to 3.5 all of which makes sense and gives me a clear picture of what I can expect from the car as long as I keep driving in a similar was as usual.

 

[David99]

Listening to the phone conversation is infuriating. The Tesla employee is lying. He is making up things that are just not true. Rated Rage (or Ideal range) is calculated directly from the battery capacity by the BMS. It has not and never has been affected by driving style or environmental conditions. It is, by law, based on the EPA test cycle. The car does not 'learn' the driver's style and adjusts. Never has. Any time someone says you can't compare numbers from years ago to now is dead wrong. Again, rated range has never changed and does not adjust to driving habits.
Tesla's warranty says clearly that you are getting an equal or better battery. You did not, you got a battery with less range. It is ridiculous that Tesla is trying to talk their way out of their own freaking warranty.

Wait 6 months to a year is just saying, 'go away'. It does absolutely nothing.

Their battery diagnostic is a joke. They always say it shows the battery is 'just fine', yet they never show you the finding or data. They refuse to show any diagnostic data.

Dealing with Tesla when it comes to the battery is just so frustrating.

 

[aerodyne]

So is it common knowledge how the range shown on the IC is calculated? From my experience and what I have seen of others', this range figure really is a kind of dream figure. At first I assumed (like my other ev's) this range would reflect my driving style, recorded ambient temperature, maybe averaged for current trip counter distance. Then I read / saw that it just shows pretty much the same figure at a certain % battery soc. In fact, just like an ICE gas gauge, taking nothing into account of my driving style or tyre pressures, hills etc. The range on the energy display seems possibly different in that it is at least trying to link this journey, and actual energy remaining in the battery to the particular journey I am on.

Makes no sense at all to me to show a range figure that really does not try to take reality into account. On a cold day, if my battery (eq. gas tank) shrinks and my range is reduced, I should see a reduced range somewhere.

Over winter, the IC range display on my Renault drops to 130 miles (40kwh battery). In summer, it creeps up to over 200 miles which ties in with the 5 miles per kwh that is also reported. Over winter the mpkwh drops to 3.5 all of which makes sense and gives me a clear picture of what I can expect from the car as long as I keep driving in a similar was as usual.

By all accounts, the rated range is the total nominal remaining (including buffer) battery capacity in KwH divided by the EPA tested consumption rate that shows on the energy graph as "rated range". All other environmental factors such as weather or terrain will not affect this number.

So for my car, assuming 81.5 KwH/.300 KwH per mile, I had 272 miles rated range at 100% SoC. I actually have about 230-250 miles.

This does not mean you cannot rely on your car to get you where you need to go, far from it. Set energy to percent, and navigate to your destination. If weather, elevation or driving conditions suddenly change, the graph will change upward or downward with estimated SoC at your destination.

 

[MP3Mike]

By all accounts, the rated range displayed at 100% SoC is the total nominal remaining (including buffer) battery capacity in KwH divided by the EPA tested consumption rate that shows on the energy graph as "rated range". All other environmental factors such as weather or terrain will not affect this number.

That isn't 100% true. When the battery is really cold it will show a portion of the battery as blue and artificially reduce the SoC percentage reported, until it warms back up. So it does take some environmental factors into account.

 

[aerodyne]

And it is not just the Battery, can't get simple parts questions or feature list on a new car!

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla's warranty says clearly that you are getting an equal or better battery. You did not, you got a battery with less range.

We don't know if they did or not, as they refuse to state, or don't know, how much range they had before the battery failed.

 

[aerodyne]

That isn't 100% true. When the battery is really cold it will show a portion of the battery as blue and artificially reduce the SoC percentage reported, until it warms back up. So it does take some environmental factors into account.

Yes, correct, also greater capacity such as gained by batt heating, and energy usage applying said heating. Both are internal to the battery. Not really what I was trying to address, factors beyond your control that affect range significantly.

 

[Battpower]

That isn't 100% true. When the battery is really cold it will show a portion of the battery as blue and artificially reduce the SoC percentage reported, until it warms back up. So it does take some environmental factors into account.

I haven't seen that yet. All cars? How cold?

 

[aerodyne]

I haven't seen that yet. All cars? How cold?

I have seen it, post Regen Gate, at temps in the 50's. Very rare in SoCal, or when driving in temps above freezing.

As MP3 Mike noted, only a percent or two, and is taken into account in the rated range and navigation calcs.

 

[outdoors]

I don't mind not getting a new battery, but one of equal range is necessary. Of course I didn't have a chance to take a picture of the range before it went into service because the pack failed without notice.

I guess I am confused. I read through all of this. Might have missed something.

30 miles below rated range. I understand that is the replacement battery given to you. Yet you have no documentation to say otherwise what the pack was performing like prior. What other ways are there to verify prior other than just asking Tesla?

Also what was the arbitration for prior to this situation?

 

[David99]

We don't know if they did or not, as they refuse to state, or don't know, how much range they had before the battery failed.

He said in his phone conversation that before the replacement he got about that range when he was charging to 90%. So yes we do know that he had more range before and the replacement battery has less.

 

[David99]

Sorry @aerodyne, I editted before your reply.

So OP should ask for evidence that they matched his battery performance with the replacement. Not match range!

Tesla will not give you anything. They will claim the battery is just fine as they have always done. Their way is to always claim range is something that fluctuates so there is never a specific number. That is true but has nothing to do with the issue because we are not talking about driving, but what the car shows as rated range. The number the car shows as rated range has absolutely nothing to do with any driving style, conditions or driving history. To further confuse Tesla officially recommends to change the settings to percentage. This will prevent you from seeing any change of range.

 

[Battpower]

officially recommends to change the settings to percentage. This will prevent you from seeing any change of range.

Tesla's behaviour reminds me of how I felt trying to deal with a now deceased aunt of my wife. Broad Philly accent. Completely berating my wife on the phone as she was the last relative who had not given up trying to be nice to this Aunt. To give my wife a break I took the phone and picked up the conversation trying to gently bring some calm and sense back. After 15 minutes of somewhat incoherent ranting interspersed with my best efforts at calmly stated obvious logic she exploded 'that's enough, put me back on with your wife. I'm sick of hearing your perfectly reasonable voice!'

Yet to hear that from Tesla but it would fit so many cases just fine.

Actually, maybe the term 'corporate dementia' might be an explanation for some of Tesla's behaviour.

 

[aerodyne]

The fish rots from the head, as they say. Tesla's management has been going downhill in some respects since summer of 2018.

I don't blame the employees, although many of the smart ones have left the company.

So how do we get Tesla to honor a warranty? My guess is arbitration. To prepare for that, if I had a newer car, I would run the car down and up from 80-30%, and record temp, and KwH in and out.

Say that was 50KwH. If I suspected degradation, and repeated the same test and saw 34.9 KwH, I would demand a new batt under warranty.

@David99, what do you think would happen? How would Tesla try to weasel out of their commitment? Would I even get a new batt?

 

[Battpower]

Trying to understand what the key arbitration factors would be is the key thing. What claims did Tesla make for your specific vehicle, how and when.

Has the owner demonstrably done anything unreasonable to exacerbate the problem?

And then of course view supporting evidence. Would TeslaFi data or similar pulled back off Tesla's own servers be any more use in making the argument than local director from the car like SMT?

 

[David99]

So how do we get Tesla to honor a warranty? My guess is arbitration. To prepare for that, if I had a newer car, I would run the car down and up from 80-30%, and record temp, and KwH in and out.

Say that was 50KwH. If I suspected degradation, and repeated the same test and saw 34.9 KwH, I would demand a new batt under warranty.

@David99, what do you think would happen? How would Tesla try to weasel out of their commitment? Would I even get a new batt?

They will argue the same thing, that driving conditions results in different range and can't be used as a measure. You'd lose arbitration most likely. There is a much easier method. You can read the data from the battery itself through the CAN bus. I have done this for many years. The car shows exactly how much energy (kWh) the batter has and can hold when fully charged and how much that translates into range. All kinds of data is there. Tesla refuses to accept this data as it is from a 'third party'. Of course that's a BS argument as it's simply read the data coming from the car itself. But in arbitration they will side with Tesla.

There is a class action lawsuit going on against Tesla regarding older batteries that have developed a dangerous condition that can lead to fires. Instead of acknowledging, Tesla crippled these cars via software (they even admitted that to me). That's just how Tesla rolls these days. They really try everything to avoid battery replacement under warranty to save money.

I'd be very careful with arbitration. If you lose, that's it, you can't go to court any more. It's final. This case is actually a little more straight forward if you have prove what the max range was before the replacement. If it was more then Tesla needs to honor the warranty which clearly states, it must be equal or better.

 

[David99]

Actually, maybe the term 'corporate dementia' might be an explanation for some of Tesla's behaviour.

It is directive from the top management. I feel bad for the employees who have to verbalize these BS excused to the owners. I have dealt with with Tesla on a similar battery warranty issue. They crippled my battery via software to 'preserve range', yet the software took away 20-30 miles of range. It's a contradiction in itself but said with full confidence by Tesla. There is no point arguing with the Tesla employee. They are instructed to lie and confuse and in the end they have no power making a warranty decision anyway.

 

[Peter Lucas]

Tesla will not give you anything. They will claim the battery is just fine as they have always done. Their way is to always claim range is something that fluctuates so there is never a specific number. That is true but has nothing to do with the issue because we are not talking about driving, but what the car shows as rated range. The number the car shows as rated range has absolutely nothing to do with any driving style, conditions or driving history. To further confuse Tesla officially recommends to change the settings to percentage. This will prevent you from seeing any change of range.

This goes along with my experience as well. I also got evasive and nonsensical answers when complaining about loss of battery capacity and loss of range in a nearly brand new car. A few months ago a service manager told me that Tesla will not replace a battery for any loss of capacity or range. Battery replacement will only occur if there is a battery fault. If there is a battery fault, your cars display will indicate this. So: If your car is not displaying a battery fault, no new battery for you.
As I have described elsewhere, the car's display of full charge range may conceal battery degradation. Somehow, the full charge range can display very small decreases over time even when the usable battery capacity has diminished significantly.

 

[Chaserr]

There's a lot of crap that's going to hit the fan in the next year over Tesla's shady practices and it's going to shake the company to its foundation. Just wait for it.

Part of me wonders if Elon is selling everything he owns because so much of his worth is tied up in Tesla and he's buckling under the weight of what he's done. As CEO it's all his fault and it will come crashing down on his head first, and they committed a lot of crimes over Batterygate - some actually incredibly similar to Dieselgate and those crimes put VW's CEO in prison. Whatever is melting him down, he's serious about it - his homes are on Zillow.

 

[Peter Lucas]

So is it common knowledge how the range shown on the IC is calculated? From my experience and what I have seen of others', this range figure really is a kind of dream figure. At first I assumed (like my other ev's) this range would reflect my driving style, recorded ambient temperature, maybe averaged for current trip counter distance. Then I read / saw that it just shows pretty much the same figure at a certain % battery soc. In fact, just like an ICE gas gauge, taking nothing into account of my driving style or tyre pressures, hills etc. The range on the energy display seems possibly different in that it is at least trying to link this journey, and actual energy remaining in the battery to the particular journey I am on.

Makes no sense at all to me to show a range figure that really does not try to take reality into account. On a cold day, if my battery (eq. gas tank) shrinks and my range is reduced, I should see a reduced range somewhere.

Over winter, the IC range display on my Renault drops to 130 miles (40kwh battery). In summer, it creeps up to over 200 miles which ties in with the 5 miles per kwh that is also reported. Over winter the mpkwh drops to 3.5 all of which makes sense and gives me a clear picture of what I can expect from the car as long as I keep driving in a similar was as usual.

As a partial compensation for the simple-minded and uselessly optimistic display of rated range, the navigator does a very good job of predicting what your battery percent will be at the end of your trip. Mine even displays the battery percent at the end of an assumed round trip, This calculator even takes into account elevation changes, as well as the changes in energy consumption related to the various speeds along the route. I do not know if it uses personal historical driving patterns. I use the navigator often. Not because I need directions. But for the re-routing I get if there is an unusual slow-down along my usual route. And for the occasionally useful routing alternatives that I had never thought of, but saves a few minutes.