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Build quality: alignment of trunk

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You guys have no idea what you're talking about. There are three shapings in the Tesla hatch vs a straight Lexus trunk. The gapping is consistent through the entire seam, which is the important point. If you prefer tight gapping, then go ahead and buy the shapeless rear-ended Lexus.

If the gap were an inch wide, but absolutely consistent to the micrometer, would you still say that the consistency of the gap was all that was important? I don't think you would. The gaps on the cars in Elon's photos may be absolutely perfectly consistent, but to my eye and from that angle, they are large enough that they make the trunk look misaligned. Illusion or no, it just doesn't look good.

In another thread, you challenged AnOutsider to look at other expensive cars on the road, and suggested that he was unfairly holding Tesla to a higher standard. I read your challenge yesterday and I took your suggestion to heart. I paid attention to the cars I saw on the road yesterday and today, especially the white and silver ones. What I found was that I do not see a gap as large as the ones I've seen on Model S on any other car, with the notable exception of a Karma I happened to come across. (On that particular Karma, the gaps were substantially larger and more uneven than those on the Model S.) I saw Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Toyota, Acura, etc.

I happened to end up at a light next to a white Lexus and it, like the other cars I had seen so far that day, had nice, consistent gaps around the trunk, so I snapped the photo. It seemed off topic to the Inside Tesla thread to post the photo there, so I posted it here instead. I'm absolutely not trying to hold Tesla to a higher standard than I would any other premium/luxury car maker, but I do expect the Model S to look as if it fits together as well as those other cars do.

A few weeks ago, I was thinking that perhaps the trunk gap was just an optical illusion -- an unfortunate manifestation of the particular choices made in where to put the trunk opening and how to place the seam. Something that was unavoidable, given the design, and I was thinking that I would just order the car in a dark color that would make gaps less apparent. Then I found that video that I posted earlier in this thread: Build quality: alignment of trunk - Page 10

Compare the cars in Elon's photo with the white Model S Beta that is in the video. The gaps on the car in the video are clearly substantially tighter than what's in Elon's photo. They look nice, and every bit as tight as that Lexus, despite the multiple shapings. The design prototype also showed very tight seams on the rear hatch. Tighter than the car in that video, in fact. It looked great in white and silver.

This is what I understood to be the design intent for the car, and is what I understood that Tesla intended to produce. Elon made his comments on the conference call about how seriously they were taking the fit of the body. I even arranged to go to the most recent Palo Alto "Get Amped" event to see how they were progressing, and I could clearly see that the newer cars had tighter gaps than the older ones. They were still a little uneven (the blue car's gap was wider on the right side of the car than on the left, and the black car's trunk wasn't flush at the rear), but things appeared to be improving. At least one Tesla person who had been to the factory said that things were even better in the week or so since those Get Amped cars were produced.

So, I was confident enough to order my car in white. But now I see Elon's photo. It's a photo that, from the tone of his tweet, he seems to be pleased with. But the gaps don't even look as tight as the cars I saw in Palo Alto, much less the car in that video. So, I'm concerned that Tesla's target is not what I understood it to be.
 
I sure hope those photos were of unfinished cars. I too was at the event and asked many reps about the alignment and they all assured me the fit was the most important thing being worked on so I highly doubt they would ship something worse then they were showing. We'll just have to wait for more pictures and actual deliveries I guess. Crossing my fingers!!!!!!
 
Audi came up with an interesting solution to the challenge of getting the difficult seams on the hatch right: they've used the seam inherent in the window/metal gap:
2012-audi-a7-rearside_gsaua7122.jpg
 
Audi came up with an interesting solution to the challenge of getting the difficult seams on the hatch right: they've used the seam inherent in the window/metal gap:
2012-audi-a7-rearside_gsaua7122.jpg

To my eye the Audi looks just as "bad" as the Tesla, just at the bottom of the hatch instead of at the sides. That's a really thick black line under the brakelights to the license plate. I think that to non-obsessive people (I'm here obsessing too, so I'm intending to use that word in a non-derogatory way, though it sounds bad :wink:), it just isn't a big deal. Of course, I'm getting red, so none of the lines are very noticeable...
 
You guys have no idea what you're talking about. There are three shapings in the Tesla hatch vs a straight Lexus trunk. The gapping is consistent through the entire seam, which is the important point. If you prefer tight gapping, then go ahead and buy the shapeless rear-ended Lexus.

Yes, it looks consistent. A large hatch might need more spiel for the closing movement compared to a small trunk, which is more like the doors. The lines are also part of the design at least to some extent. I don't mean to say it's better than if it were more tight, though.

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To my eye the Audi looks just as "bad" as the Tesla, just at the bottom of the hatch instead of at the sides. That's a really thick black line under the brakelights to the license plate. I think that to non-obsessive people (I'm here obsessing too, so I'm intending to use that word in a non-derogatory way, though it sounds bad :wink:), it just isn't a big deal. Of course, I'm getting red, so none of the lines are very noticeable...

Maybe it's just me, but to me *this* Audi from *this* angle doesn't look half as good, hatch and otherwise.
 
MikeK: Take a closer look at all those cars you're comparing to S. How shaped (or in most cases, how NOT shaped, but flat they are) compared to ALL the panels on the S. Look at how the Manufacturers 'cheat' so that they specifically do NOT have to put shaped panel beside shaped panel. Like the Audi pictured above. It's a cheat the way that hatch is designed so that making the panels and fitting them together are easy. And lets be honest...the gapping looks as wide as it does on the S. The Lexus trunk is flat all the way around, fitted to a side panel that is flat where they meet. There's all of one bend in it, matched to all of one bend in the panel. Easy peasy by comparison.

Every shape/bend/curve in that Tesla hatch is going in a different direction and then having to butt up against another panel with shaping going in yet other directions. Unless you've actually tried to fit that kind of panelling together, you have no idea how exponentially harder it becomes with every additional shape/bend/curve. And that's why manufacturers of most other vehicles design their vehicles to have flat surface beside flat surface. There are few models out there that don't shy away from shaping, look at those vehicles and compare to the S to get apple to apple.

Another thing that has to be considered is if panels are flush...meaning, if you run your fingers over the seam, is one panel higher than the other. That happens a lot on cars. I've got a Cobalt sitting in the parking lot that I can read brail off of for the poor flush fitting. The gapping is good, but then it's a pretty flat panelled car.

At this point, I'm saying, considering the aggressive shaping in the S, they're doing a very good job with gapping and they've made steps along the way to improve it. That's got to be a serious plus to consider, rather than a negative in my books.
 
MikeK: Take a closer look at all those cars you're comparing to S. How shaped (or in most cases, how NOT shaped, but flat they are) compared to ALL the panels on the S.

[snip]

At this point, I'm saying, considering the aggressive shaping in the S, they're doing a very good job with gapping and they've made steps along the way to improve it. That's got to be a serious plus to consider, rather than a negative in my books.

I absolutely agree that the Model S is not a straightforward shape to build. I am not in any way unsympathetic to the efforts that I'm certain Tesla's manufacturing folks are making. It has clearly gotten better, just since the initial Get Amped cars were built. I also have heard that aluminum is harder to form precisely than steel, so that's another challenge they face.

In one of the test drive photo sets that have been posted in the last couple of months, there was a shot of a Model S body panel fitted into a jig, with carefully hand-written figures all along the joint noting (I presume) deviations from the design fit. I'm an engineer, although I do software and not hardware. I appreciate how hard it is to get things right, especially when you're not content to settle for "ordinary". I'm certain that they're busting ass, and I can't even picture how you go about debugging panel fit like this on a car!

For better or for worse, what I do for a living is that I design high-definition user interfaces for consumer electronics devices. I deal in pixels all day long. I'm *extremely* sensitive to symmetry, alignment, and so forth. My house remodeling contractors have told me they're surprised that I can usually estimate the size of something by eye to high precision (usually 1/16" or so for smallish objects). I also have 20/13 vision. I'm probably going to be among the most sensitive customers Tesla has on this issue.

So, do I disagree that they're doing well considering that it's a new and ambitious design, on new tooling, in a new factory? No I do not. Does that background and context mean that I think that photo looks good? No, it does not.

I think the Model S trunk can look good if it's really nailed. The white car in that YouTube clip looks good around the trunk. It has some minor fit issues visible, but the trunk looks, for lack of a better word, as if it "belongs" with the rest of the car. When the gap gets as big as I've seen at some of the Get Amped events, the trunk looks like it's sitting on the car, but doesn't belong there.

The cars in Elon's photo appear to be right on the ragged edge between looking good and looking not so good, and I agree with others that it's hard to make a call from the photo. I bet if that gap were about 3/32" tighter, it would totally "click" visually, and photo or not there would be no question that the fit was good. We're not talking big changes here. There are 1,000 cars to build before mine, at least. If Tesla is continuing to refine, I bet it will end up looking great. If they're satisfied with what's in that photo, though...
 
For what it's worth. I just showed Elon's photo to a friend who knows next to nothing about Model S, and asked her, "Does anything in this picture look at all odd to you?" Her response: "Well, the trunk seems a little weird."

An out of focus camera phone picture of unreleased cars awaiting inspection.....Maybe worth waiting until we see some proper photos of released cars? Just sayin'
 
And as I already explained...flat panel fitted to flat panel on both the Porsche and the CT200 vs highly shaped panel fitted to highly shaped panel on the S. Apples to oranges.

You are explaining why a tight gap is difficult to achieve. We understand. The issue is not that it's difficult to achieve a tighter gap given the shape of the Model S. The issue is that the gap is unsightly, and it in no way resembles the look of the original design:

boston-dot-com.jpg


Clearly, the car was not originally intended to have such a large gap. It was intended to have tight-fitting panels, and so far that fit has not been achieved at the trunk. It may be that the gap will get tighter as manufacturing is refined, or it may be that they have reached the limits of what they can do. In the latter case, I suspect that a later iteration of the car will change the design so that the gap is treated differently, so as to minimize the visual artifacts. Far too many disinterested parties have seen the Get Amped cars either in person or in photos and remarked to me that the trunk looks weird. I'm sure Tesla is hearing the same thing. They will not want that issue to persist.

To double-check myself, I showed Elon's tweet photo along with my own photos from the Get Amped events to a prominent industrial designer today (I happened to be in a meeting). He agreed that it didn't look great. His opinion was that Model S looked better in a dark color because the dark color hides all of the body seams, but he simultaneously admitted that he wasn't crazy about owning a dark car because of the constant struggle keeping it looking its best. He thought the gap was something that an owner would get used to. Interestingly, his partner liked the white better because of how the nose cone and other elements "pop" against the white (this is also what I like about the white).

So, it's not a show-stopper, but gosh it would be great if they could tighten that gap up. I really don't think it would take much more to get it really great.