BUY FSD TODAY!

[Knightshade]

There is no Z.

Of course there is.

The part physically costs money to produce

Elon said its cost was similar to, or perhaps a little cheaper, than the AP2.5 chip. Which also cost money to produce


How can you possibly not understand that?

 

[crackers8199]

When the $5K "later" price was on the Ordering page, there was a DATE associated with that price.

unless I missed something, this is 100% false. there was no "you must add it by this date to get the $5k price." there was no date mentioned at all.

 

[JeffK]

Of course there is.

The part physically costs money to produce

Elon said its cost was similar to, or perhaps a little cheaper, than the AP2.5 chip. Which also cost money to produce


How can you possibly not understand that?

You'll have to argue that with Elon. Again HW 2.5 is in the base price of the car paid by the consumer, cost of FSD also paid by the consumer..

Plus this post is pretty solid that the $3K for FSD is not software only.
Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[crackers8199]

No, it won't actually.

Because they legally can't do that. You didn't pay for HW upgrades that still don't add any function- so they can't use that revenue for that purpose on the books.

we didn't pay for hardware upgrades because we were told it didn't need any. the car was sold as having all the hardware needed to be fully autonomous. Elon hammered that point home at every opportunity from the launch event on...

 

[Knightshade]

You'll have to argue that with Elon.

No, you will- because unlike you he understands the HW3 chip costs actual money to produce

“It’s an incredible job by Pete and his team to create this, the world’s most advanced computer designed specifically for autonomous operation. And as a rough sort, whereas the current NVIDIA’s hardware can do 200 frames a second, this is able to do over 2,000 frames a second and with full redundancy and fail-over. It costs the same as our current hardware

So unless you think the 2.5 hardware is free, Elon says you're wrong. HW3 costs money

 

[JeffK]

No, you will- because unlike you he understands the HW3 chip costs actual money to produce
So unless you think the 2.5 hardware is free, Elon says you're wrong. HW3 costs money

If I'm paying for the car (HW 2.5) and I'm paying extra for FSD (HW 3.0) per the tweet. How does that cost Tesla more money when I'm the one paying for both pieces of hardware?

If the price stays the same then Tesla will make more profit when the cars come with HW 3.0, but we're only talking about HW 2.X cars. Getting FSD with purchase or after purchase is irrelevant to Tesla's cost w.r.t HW 2.x cars.

 

[Knightshade]

If I'm paying for the car (HW 2.5) and I'm paying extra for FSD (HW 3.0) per the tweet. How does that cost Tesla more money when I'm the one paying for both pieces of hardware?

So, one- The tweet doesn't say what you claim.

Remember- we're discussing PREbuying FSD for 3k, like you've been able to since 2016.


Here's what the tweet actually says

1. What about those who have EAP and order FSD (like post delivery)? Would the new chip come with the FSD upgrade? Or be a separate thing

So this guy is asking about post delivery purchasing LATER as an upgrade.

Which costs more.

Elons reply:

The FSD upgrade is the Tesla computer with our NN chip

Which is what everyone has been telling you this whole time.

If you buy it in the FUTURE- you will be charged for the upgrade.

Because the new hardware (and labor) cost actual money


Second- as explained several times now, for the 3k thing-It's impossible for it to have been "priced in", since the price was set before the hardware existed or had a known cost.

If the price stays the same then Tesla will make more profit when the cars come with HW 3.0, but we're only talking about HW 2.X cars. Getting FSD with purchase or after purchase is irrelevant to Tesla's cost w.r.t HW 2.x cars.

Except, again, it's demonstrably not because getting it before they pulled it means you don't get charged anything for the 3.0 HW.

Which, again, is a physical part that costs money to produce as Elon explained to you in my last post.

And Tesla gets $0.00 extra for giving you that part, which, again cost Tesla money to make (and the labor also costs them money).


Buying FSD in 6 months when the HW is available, and the upgrade price is increased for 2.x owners, Tesla gets to charge you for that upgrade- parts and labor.


I'm simply baffled you still don't understand this.

 

[JeffK]

With $3K we bought the Tesla NN computer and the future software according to Elon.

Yes, it cost Tesla money to build the part I paid for, but I paid for it. So that's that and as you stated yourself, they are liable for getting that to me. Others who opt to pay for the hardware will also get it.

Likewise, I'm owed a spoiler and a badge. Are you going to argue that they shouldn't give me that for "free" because it would cost them money too?

 

[Knightshade]

With $3K we bought the Tesla NN computer and the future software according to Elon.

No, according to you not bothering to read, or understand, the actual question he was answering.

Also- the new computer did not exist until recently-but people have been repurchasing FSD since 2016.

So again it would be literally impossible for your claim to be accurate unless you think there's a time machine involved.


Do you...think there's a time machine involved?

Yes, it cost Tesla money to build the part I paid for, but I paid for it.

Except, you didn't.

Which is why Tesla won't get to recognize FSD revenue when they produce the chips.

because that is literally not what that money was for

Plus- again-none of that actually changes the math you keep not understanding


$3000 minus the production cost, and labor, of the 2.5->3.0 swap= LESS money than NOT having that part and labor deducted from the 3k.

So by stopping the presale now, they save that cost on every FSD sale they make on 2.5 cars produced between now and when they switch to 3.0 in the factory.

because, again, that is how math actually works

Likewise, I'm owed a spoiler and a badge. Are you going to argue that they shouldn't give me that for "free" because it would cost them money too?

Reasons this analogy is nonsensical:

1) Those parts physically existed when the sale was made. The new chip did not. It hadn't even been designed yet.

2) Those parts, by name, were explictly listed as included in the sale. The new chip was not. It didn't exist after all, and Tesla officially stated it wasn't needed for the thing you actually bought (FSD).

3) Those parts had a known, fixed, cost, and were already understood to be included in the sale at the time of the sale. The new chip did not since, again, it didn't even exist- so it's impossible for it to have been "priced in" to the sale since the price was not known since they actual part did not exist

This isn't rocket surgery man...how do you keep getting basic math, facts, and the direction in which time flows so badly wrong?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Elon has already stated multiple times that those who bought the FSD option would get the new drive computer as a free upgrade if required for FSD driving.

The new drive computer has been in development for awhile because Elon/Tesla fully knew that it would likely require more power than what shipped with the car.

NVidia even said it would themselves.

 

[jlund]

I’ve complelty lost what you both are arguing about

 

[djgarrett21]

Elon has already stated multiple times that those who bought the FSD option would get the new drive computer as a free upgrade if required for FSD driving.

The new drive computer has been in development for awhile because Elon/Tesla fully knew that it would likely require more power than what shipped with the car.

NVidia even said it would themselves.

What is not entirely clear to me (but what I hope is true) is that purchasing FSD is a package deal - you get whatever hardware and software is necessary. I believe that was the intent of Elon's tweet, but I could see it interpreted differently.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

What is not entirely clear to me (but what I hope is true) is that purchasing FSD is a package deal - you get whatever hardware and software is necessary. I believe that was the intent of Elon's tweet, but I could see it interpreted differently.

That's not the best tweet.

There are other tweets that make it crystal clear for FSD owners.

I'm surprised this discussion is even taking place regarding FSD owners. For EAP only owners they're also wondering if they'll get the upgrade for free, but I believe Elon said it would be $5K for them to upgrade. Keep in mind there wasn't a huge percentage of people who bought the FSD option. I did because I wanted the new drive computer. I don't think I would have ordered FSD if I didn't think that was the case. Why would I spent $3K only to have to spend more money to utilize it? That would be pretty silly.

Here is a link with some info.

Tesla’s new Autopilot hardware upgrade will be free for owners with the $3,000 to $5,000 ‘Full Self-Driving’ package

Here is the tweet from Elon himself when answering the question of when Hardware 3 will be introduced and if he can confirm that all HW2 owners will get the new computer for free.

"Probably 4 to 6 months. Those who order full self-driving get the upgrade at no cost. It isn’t needed just for enhanced Autopilot."

 

[Knightshade]

I’ve complelty lost what you both are arguing about

pretty simple- I pointed out Tesla likely stopped offering FSD at this time because it knew it was going to build a LOT of HW2.5 cars between now and when HW3 is coming from the factory- and since pre-purchasing FSD means free HW upgrade, they would save money by removing the FSD option until cars got HW3 in the factory.

Because every FSD they sell today (and until HW3 is in every car from the factory) is another car they will have to eat the cost on replacing the 2.5 chip both parts and labor on.... (ditto the post-purchase FSD buyers who got in before it was pulled- their "time of sale" price is likely locked in too).

So to save money they remove it from the menu- and now anyone going forward buying a 2.5 car will have to wait to buy it later when they offer it again, but will likely pay more (than the normal post-purchase price) for it since they can include the HW/labor price in the "new" cost for 2.5 cars.


But JeffK insists this doesn't ACTUALLY save Tesla anything- because he insists the upgrade costs Tesla $0.00 because apparently in his mind HW3 chips are literally free to build ...or...something....and Tesla just pulled it from the menu because... actually- he never does give a reason...

 

[JeffK]

Yes, I'm insisting we've already paid for it which is why it's "free" to us.

I'm also suggesting that for every EAP car sold in the next few weeks/months, if they want to upgrade later I'm sure it will be possible. It won't be costing Tesla anything as anyone who gets the upgrade will be paying for it. Tesla isn't eating any costs.

 

[djgarrett21]

I don't believe Tesla intents to charge ANY M3 owners to upgrade the computer for FSD, whether they buy FSD pre or post delivery. The car has always been advertised to have the hardware necessary for FSD, the only stipulation has been a software purchase.

In fact, the the website is pretty clear and still advertise that the M3 has all FSD hardware necessary:

• Full Self-Driving Hardware
  Every new Model 3 comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Enhanced Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I don't believe Tesla intents to charge ANY M3 owners to upgrade the computer for FSD, whether they buy FSD pre or post delivery. The car has always been advertised to have the hardware necessary for FSD, the only stipulation has been a software purchase.

In fact, the the website is pretty clear and still advertise that the M3 has all FSD hardware necessary:

• Full Self-Driving Hardware
  Every new Model 3 comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Enhanced Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time.

Ultimately the hardware upgrade cost is getting bundled into the FSD option.

One can choose to see it however they want, but ultimately from our perspective you can't separate the two.

You're either faced with paying $3K now, and possibly save money later. Or wait and risk the chance of the post-delivery cost of being much higher.

In either case the necessary hardware will be included in the package.

I'm glad Tesla removed the FSD from the website because it's always risky to sell something before you know what it will take. The way they worded it meant a lot of money could be lost in higher than expected hardware upgrade costs. Especially if it ended up requiring something like rear-radar.

The biggest risk with getting the FSD option is you might never see any real functionality out of it. Someone who paid for it 2 years ago still hasn't seen anything from it.

 

[MarkS22]

With $3K we bought the Tesla NN computer and the future software according to Elon.

Yes, it cost Tesla money to build the part I paid for, but I paid for it. So that's that and as you stated yourself, they are liable for getting that to me. Others who opt to pay for the hardware will also get it.

Likewise, I'm owed a spoiler and a badge. Are you going to argue that they shouldn't give me that for "free" because it would cost them money too?

The difference is that the current car doesn't come with a lesser spoiler and badge. I think the argument is that they shouldn't be actively selling a new spoiler and badge (HW3) because the car comes with an older spoiler and badge (HW2.5) which will go in the garbage when the new one comes in. Sure, you are getting something that came with the car and you paid for it, but there's still a fixed cost to those soon-to-be outdated parts that ultimately Tesla could be pocketing instead. Selling it again when everyone is getting the new spoiler...cough.. HW3 makes sense and will also be closer to some level of FSD features actually being released.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, and that it would be in future cars in about 6 months. To me it sounds like If you haven't ordered FSD you'll be paying extra for it as an upgrade. By definition this is a hardware up grade, am I wrong?

Its going to a new ECU,,,,yes, but not new cameras

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, I'm insisting we've already paid for it which is why it's "free" to us.

And without the existence of a time machine, that's demonstrably impossible, as explained repeatedly to you.

(also without ignoring accounting rules and other factors)

I'm also suggesting that for every EAP car sold in the next few weeks/months, if they want to upgrade later I'm sure it will be possible.

That's not really a "suggestion"- that's something myself, and virtually everyone in the thread, has also said.

But what we are pointing out is it will likely cost them more than those who got in before it came off the menu- since Tesla will be free to actually add the cost of the HW and labor of the upgrade to their bill.

Hence it costs Tesla more to upgrade the people who already bought FSD before pulling it from the menu.

Because, again, actual facts and math prove this

It won't be costing Tesla anything as anyone who gets the upgrade will be paying for it. Tesla isn't eating any costs.

Except, of course, they are.

Because the actual physical parts cost something. And since they didn't even exist when the original price was set it's impossible for the new HW to have been "priced in" to that amount.

So those who already bought FSD won't pay a dime extra for the upgrade, while those who buy it on future 2.5 cars after removal of the FSD offer, that they will add back post-3 HW at the factory, can be asked to pay more for it.

A distinction you continue to not understand.

I don't believe Tesla intents to charge ANY M3 owners to upgrade the computer for FSD, whether they buy FSD pre or post delivery. The car has always been advertised to have the hardware necessary for FSD, the only stipulation has been a software purchase.

What you just described is the reason being suggested that they're removing the FSD stuff from the offering right now.

So that they're not bound to that promise on 2.5 cars they build/sell after it's removed.

And thus can charge more for the HW upgrade on 2.5 cars they sell after said promise is removed.


I've yet to hear any actual reason for pulling the feature given by anybody who thinks otherwise... do you have one?