Cadillac ELR (Converj)

[Blastphemy]

The ELR is a very nice car. Congrats. Whether it is worth the $75k is what the debate here is. You think it is of course. I and others don't

I didn't mean to imply that I thought the ELR was worth its MSRP. I do think, however, that the ELR is worth its current lease price, which is equivalent to a $60k vehicle from Lexus, Audi, or Infiniti (i.e., their lease rates are "normal," whereas the ELR's lease rates are rock bottom with an artificially higher residual). The ELR would be worth its MSRP if it accelerated faster, at least as quickly as every other $75,995* car.

The real question is, would an 85kWh Model S be worth its base price of $81,070* if it also accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds like the ELR in EV mode? What about if it accelerated 0-60 in 7.8 seconds like the ELR in ER (extended range) mode? Is having an all-electric range of 265-300 miles and reasonable room for five** adults worth the same price as the exact same base vehicle with 0-60 in 5.4 seconds? How much of the Model S price is inflated by the insane acceleration? $5,000? $10,000? $20,000?

If people would still pay $70-80k for a base 85kWh Model S with 8-9 second 0-60 acceleration, then the ELR doesn't appear so overpriced, especially with all its luxury accoutrements.

* $66,995 ELR and $71,070 Model S after full Federal tax credit and applicable California state tax rebates applied.
** base model, not with the $2,500 rear-facing toddler seats.

 

[dsm363]

$60k would be a fair starting price for the ELR. I don't think as many people would have a problem with that.

Everyone wants different things. The range seems to be #1 for most people with the acceleration being a huge bonus. Why try and come up with this theoretical comparison? The Model S costs so much because of the range, not the acceleration.

 

[Blastphemy]

The Model S costs so much because of the range, not the acceleration.

Tell that to qwk! lol.

 

[Gear]

If people would still pay $70-80k for a base 85kWh Model S with 8-9 second 0-60 acceleration, then the ELR doesn't appear so overpriced, especially with all its luxury accoutrements.

Nice concept, but you're comparing it to a car that doesn't exist. I would say the Model S would be worth at least $15k less if it didn't accelerate like it does. Acceleration is not cheap. If I wanted a slow EV, I'd have gotten any of the other EV's on the market.

 

[qwk]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

I wouldn't have bought it, and probably wouldn't have followed Tesla for close to ten years like I have. The roadster specs is what got me interested in 2005-2006, and the rest is history.

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Tell that to qwk! lol.

What you fail to realize is that EV power is dictated by the battery, not the motor. A battery that performs without early degradation costs money. Since the current auto manufacturers aren't serious about EV's and just make them to satisfy CARB, no current EV even comes close to Tesla's performance. It's likely to stay that way for quite a while.

 

[AnOutsider]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

Not I.

 

[qwk]

Not I.

I suspect that a poor performing Model S would have doomed the company. They certainly wouldn't have sold that many cars from just test drives like they have. There is a reason that Tesla doesn't have a pushy sales model. The car sells itself.

 

[dsm363]

I suspect that a poor performing Model S would have doomed the company. They certainly wouldn't have sold that many cars from just test drives like they have. There is a reason that Tesla doesn't have a pushy sales model. The car sells itself.

Yep. People may not need a 4 second car but when you get someone in the Model S or Roadster who thinks EVs are golf carts and floor it, you see their eyes light up and say all kinds of words not family friendly. Since EVs don't have 3 min refueling and 150,000 fueling stations yet, they need to be better than ICEs and other things. Instant acceleration and peak torque help overcome that drawback. The ELR requires the gas engine to help with range but suffers in performance at nearly the same price at the Model S.

 

[WarpedOne]

They don't have a pushy sales model as they produce a pushy car

 

[Doug_G]

I had a chance to drive an ELR last week. The acceleration is definitely anemic. The handling however is pretty darn good.

I took it through the hairpin at the F1 track in Montreal (the only place on the track where they'd let you rip it) using the proper racing line and at the limit of grip. It understeered very mildly. The tires were squealing all the way around the corner... as was the young lady from the dealership who was riding along with me. :biggrin:

Nice fit and finish. I just don't think it's worth the price.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

Most buyers of luxury cars want speed. Slow doesn't sell much at a high price point, and that's just the reality. Ask Acura dealers how they feel about the Acura ILX and it's 2.0L engine, because those sure aren't moving fast off the dealer lots…

 

[mknox]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

For me, the answer is absolutely, yes. I would have paid the same price. As far as I'm concerned, the Model S accelerates way faster than it needs to anyway.

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Nice fit and finish. I just don't think it's worth the price.

Haven't driven one yet, but saw a black one at the coffee shop drive-thru this morning. It's certainly a very attractive car. The price certainly is an issue, but then I also think it is a bit of an issue for the Model S as well. I think this is just an "early adopter" penalty right now.

 

[mnx]

I wouldn't have gotten a Model S if it didn't beat my BMW 335d in terms of acceleration. (6s 0-60)

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

 

[Gear]

I wouldn't have gotten a Model S if it didn't beat my BMW 335d in terms of acceleration. (6s 0-60)

Same here, also having moved from a 335d. I want economy, but not at the expense of performance, which is why I got the 335d in the first place. The Model S is better on both counts.

 

[RubberToe]

ELR sales:
January 2014: 41
February 2014: 58
March 2014: 81
April 2014: 61

Looks like we have just finished the "early adopter" rush. Well, GM won't need to ever worry about any large expenditures for a giga-factory, they can just stop by Radio Shack once a week or so to build all their electric cars battery packs.

RT

P.S. Late breaking news, they also sold 3 in Canada! 1 in February and 2 in March. 244 total worldwide sales.

 

[dsm363]

Kind of to be expected with the price for what you get. If this had come out first and the Volt didn't exist them maybe it would have succeeded. Still might since it is early.

 

[mknox]

P.S. Late breaking news, they also sold 3 in Canada! 1 in February and 2 in March. 244 total worldwide sales.

Huh. I guess the one I saw at the drive-thru a week or so ago was one of them!

 

[Blastphemy]

Looks like we have just finished the "early adopter" rush. Well, GM won't need to ever worry about any large expenditures for a giga-factory, they can just stop by Radio Shack once a week or so to build all their electric cars battery packs.

Look no farther than recent comments from executives like Mark Reuss and Uwe Ellinghaus to see why Cadillac is failing to sell this car. They're utterly clueless. First an insulting ad during the Olympics, then Reuss says he doesn't care if people think the ELR is too expensive, then Ellinghaus says 'tree huggers' don't buy expensive cars.

So Cadillac's strategy is "(1) Caricature your potential customers in the most demeaning way possible, (2) Ignore customers' concerns about the high price, and then (3) Insult your target customer by calling them cheap." No wonder these "overworked miserly tree huggers" are buying $90k Teslas instead.

Where's the slick ad campaign showcasing the car's futuristic looks and technology? Where does Cadillac even mention that the ELR is an electric PHEV? There's no attempt to create desire or position the car as a status symbol (aside from the ad insulting France and China). Ridiculous.

 

[RubberToe]

Taxpayer's bill for GM bailout: $11.2 billion:
Taxpayers' bill for GM bailout: $11.2 billion - latimes.com

And the best quote from the article: "Buoyed by lower debt, reduced labor costs and a focus on only its strongest brands, GM is emblematic of a revitalized U.S. auto industry."

A friend of mine has a great quote that is applicable here: "You just can't make this stuff up"...

RT

P.S. Just to be completely clear, and leave all GM snarkiness aside for the briefest of moments... If Tesla had produced the equivalent of the ELR, the company would have gone bankrupt after the first day the vehicle was released. The amount of negative press generated on the internet would have been so great as to have interrupted every YouTube video being watched for several days. And Tesla would have been the laughing stock of the entire world. GM executives would all have been smoking some big fat cigars with the $0.90 they saved on each of those ignition switches, and started designing the next big SUV for when gas prices came down to $0.99 per gallon...

Oops, looks like the snarkiness can't be turned off, even momentarily. But you get the idea I'm sure.

They don't get it, they are toast, stick a fork in them. Be one of the Hyenas tearing out the big chunks of flesh before everyone else gorges down :wink:

 

[Gear]

Look no farther than recent comments from executives like Mark Reuss and Uwe Ellinghaus to see why Cadillac is failing to sell this car. They're utterly clueless. First an insulting ad during the Olympics, then Reuss says he doesn't care if people think the ELR is too expensive, then Ellinghaus says 'tree huggers' don't buy expensive cars.

So Cadillac's strategy is "(1) Caricature your potential customers in the most demeaning way possible, (2) Ignore customers' concerns about the high price, and then (3) Insult your target customer by calling them cheap." No wonder these "overworked miserly tree huggers" are buying $90k Teslas instead.

Where's the slick ad campaign showcasing the car's futuristic looks and technology? Where does Cadillac even mention that the ELR is an electric PHEV? There's no attempt to create desire or position the car as a status symbol (aside from the ad insulting France and China). Ridiculous.

A bit of a tangent, I know, but that's probably why I'll likely never buy a GM product. They seem to be just clueless in general. The large American manufacturers in general seem to be. They're all too afraid to make something different and really shake things up. I at least have some respect for Ford because of the drastic measures they took to cut back expenses and save their company without the government's help, but they still don't make anything I really care about. As an American, I really want to see the manufacturers do well, but they consistently show an aversion to truly innovate. Maybe someday I can buy another GM or Ford product (Chrysler isn't really American anymore), but that day isn't today, not while they act the way they have been in recent years. Jay Leno had a good quote, when talking about the 1963 Chrysler Turbine car when he said, "Most of all, the Chrysler Turbine is a reminder that all the cool stuff used to be made in the U.S. I hope it will be again."