Cadillac ELR (Converj)

[ecarfan]

We all like to rationalize our big ticket purchases.

 

[jomo25]

Yes it is. Unless they eliminated the engine maintenance modes and ERDTT.



Some people don't even understand how their own car works.

I can attest to that. While I loved the Volt for what it was, I cant honestly tell people that we never used gas in it, even though my wife's commute was 20 miles daily, and we charged daily.

Once we got the MS in April 2013, the Volt never got driven beyond its battery range through the day we turned it in (lease termination) earlier this month. The range extender wasnt required after that point for distance reasons.

However, two scenarios initiated the ICE in that time. Once in the winter, it got cold enough here in PHX that the ICE came on to help the car warm up. It was only once, and it was the first time I'd ever experienced it. No big deal. It was on for about 5-7 min I believe.

The second scenario began in about March. Since I had about a half tank of gas left that had been sitting in the car since April, the Volt needed to start burning off the potentially stale gas. So for about a week or so, the Volt was running in ICE mode to burn the fuel away. I figured no big deal, I wont need to replace the fuel, and wasnt going to siphon it out before I turned the car in at the end of the lease

But to my surprise, once the fuel was completely consumed, the car would constantly remind me that I was empty on gas, and the car would run in some sort of lower power mode even if I had a full battery and had no need to drive it beyond the battery range. So, I actually had to go to the gas station and put another 2 gallons of fuel back into the tank just to stop the nonsense of the warning message every time we started the car.

So, again, the Volt served us well. And we enjoyed it for the most part. But if anyone says it won't use or need gas if your commute is completely within the battery's range, they arent being truthful.

We turned it in happily also (actually even a couple months early). And we got a Leaf to replace it. And not looking back!

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I can attest to that. While I loved the Volt for what it was, I cant honestly tell people that we never used gas in it, even though my wife's commute was 20 miles daily, and we charged daily.

Once we got the MS in April 2013, the Volt never got driven beyond its battery range through the day we turned it in (lease termination) earlier this month. The range extender wasnt required after that point for distance reasons.

However, two scenarios initiated the ICE in that time. Once in the winter, it got cold enough here in PHX that the ICE came on to help the car warm up. It was only once, and it was the first time I'd ever experienced it. No big deal. It was on for about 5-7 min I believe.

I live in Maine. Last winter stuff was a bit messed but this winter the Volt will have a consistent set-up in our unheated garage. While I'm expecting the garage and plugging in to help moderate temperature, fact is that for 2 to 3 months of the year the average overnight low where I live is comfortably below the Very Cold ERDTT settings of 15F (I have a 2013). That means on my wife's morning commute the engine will run. She has a whopping 6 mile round trip commute. The fact that it runs the engine is annoying. They might think that since the engine's there they might as well use it, but it makes a nonsense of claims of it being an EREV and a mockery of all the Volt fanbois who criticize other PHEVs for having to run the engine for heat or performance. They may have covered the performance, but they failed to cover the climate problem and manufacturers of BEVs are able to do both. Even if most Americans don't deal with 15F temperatures, the default Volt cold setting is 35F and the default setting is also to allow ERDTT when pre-conditioning on the plug, which means unnecessary running of the engine for people in any locations that can get near or below freezing. The irony is that when marketing the Volt, GM's marketing first decided that the only thing about it worth marketing was that you go to the gas station much less often.

We go beyond range enough on longer trips that we aren't affected by the maintenance modes.

 

[Blastphemy]

From the Wikipedia article on the Voltec drivetrain used in the Volt and the ELR.

The general layout of the initial production platform is considered by some to be a plug-in series hybrid design since mechanical power initially drives the generator, which in turn charges the battery pack. Power is then drained from the batteries to run the electrical motors which move the vehicle. The internal combustion engine can run at a constant speed for both optimal efficiency and mechanical simplicity (i.e., there is no need for a multi-valve, multi- or variable-cam design). The Voltec, like the Prius, uses a planetary gearset to couple power from two sources to the wheels. Unlike the Prius, the Voltec only rarely drives the wheels with mechanical assist from the engine.[1][2][9] The Voltec could therefore be considered a power-split hybrid.

I would therefore counter your statement by saying only ignorant people make claims about how things work without doing any research.

Oh, you're one of those who believe everything you read on the Internet? Seems like there's a lot of that going around on this forum. Also, a lot of people here see what they want to see, regardless of what is actually written.

Case in point: if you'd done your due diligence and research, you'd know the Voletc engine only assists the planetary gearset when the car is in Extended Range mode, and only then at high speeds or steep grades. The engine does not run at all (regardless of grade, speed, etc.) until the 16.5 kWh battery has been depleted below ~12.5 kWh (in the ELR... it's more like 11.5 kWh in the Volt). Therefore, I am absolutely correct when I say I don't use gas during my normal daily commute (about 90% of my driving).

But that was a nice try, rolosrevenge.

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Are you going to have your Model X retrofitted with Regen Paddles?

I don't understand why Regen Paddles are better than the simple and effective one-pedal driving approach uses by Tesla where the regen is controlled by the"go" pedal. I love it. I want all cars to work that way.

Sometimes you just want to coast without having to keep your foot on the accelerator to prevent the regen braking from kicking in. Regen paddles solve that problem with aplomb. It would be nice if the Model X offered that option, but it's probably patented by GM and only available if the technology is licensed. Still, one can hope. Luckily, it's going to be my wife's car, so I won't have to suffer much.

BTW, if you really want to drive the ELR or Volt with "one pedal," then all you need to do is drive in "L" instead of "D" (although it usually won't come to a complete stop). So the ELR has both options, but the Model S only has one option (although I realize the automatic regen braking can be disabled via the touchscreen controls).

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60 kWh would not cut it even though your commute is 36 miles per day except for the "rare long distance business trip" so I am guessing the 60 was too slow since range isn't the reason. That sort of shoots a hole in point number six. If a business trip is so rare why couldnt you rent a car for such trips?

If you had read my post more carefully, you would have noted that I take an annual trip (or two!) to Las Vegas from Los Angeles. After researching the real-world range of the 60kWh, I highly doubted it would make it from the Barstow supercharger to Las Vegas with an outside temp of 100 degrees while driving 75-85 mph, especially with all those extended steep grades.

As for renting a car, why would anyone in his right mind spend all that money on a car knowing he'll have to rent a second one just to get where he needs to go? That's ludicrous.

 

[dsm363]

Sounds like the ELR is the perfect car then. Maybe all cars should have the Volt powertrain?

Well if you had 5 people in your family that rules the Volt or ELR out as a family car. If you have a 80 mile daily commute is the ELR still the superior car? How about 60 miles? What percentage of EV only driving is ideal for you?

The ELR fits your driving needs and that is great. Others are perfectly happy with 200-260 miles of EV range and not lugging around an ICE for 1% of trips. If you have to rent a car once a year I don't see that as ludicrous. If you know that going in not a big deal. Heck, swap cars with a friend. I bet they'd be much more excited about driving a P85 around for a week than a Volt or ELR.

 

[jomo25]

Case in point: if you'd done your due diligence and research, you'd know the Voletc engine only assists the planetary gearset when the car is in Extended Range mode, and only then at high speeds or steep grades.

Or in very cold temps. Or the gas is becoming stale.

 

[Gear]

As for renting a car, why would anyone in his right mind spend all that money on a car knowing he'll have to rent a second one just to get where he needs to go? That's ludicrous.

Sounds like the logic people use for having SUV's. They'd rather suffer the 15mpg all year than rent one for the annual family trip when they actually "need" it.

 

[Doug_G]

Or in very cold temps. Or the gas is becoming stale.

Once you have the parallel / series hybrid design, it should be designed to do whatever is the most efficient and reliable. Since GM decided to use the mode, the car must be better with it than without. So who cares under what conditions it turns on? The main thing is to get as many electric miles out of the car as possible.

 

[rabar10]

For anyone who drives fewer than 35-40 mile per day (~75% of commuters), the gas is never used. Only ignorant people ... don't understand that.

Therefore, I am absolutely correct when I say I don't use gas during my normal daily commute (about 90% of my driving).

These are very different statements. See recent posts on colder temperatures.

And while below-freezing temps may not be an issue for you personally in Los Angeles, I doubt you can schedule engine startups due to maintenance mode, stale gas, etc. to only happen during the 10% of driving outside your 'normal daily commute'.

---

When you liberally use phrases like 'ignorant people', 'if you had read my post more carefully', 'you must believe everything you read on the Internet', don't be surprised when people call you out on your logical fallacies.

 

[dsm363]

Sounds like the logic people use for having SUV's. They'd rather suffer the 15mpg all year than rent one for the annual family trip when they actually "need" it.

Exactly. Some drive a Dodge RAM 3500 all for the once or twice a year trips to Home Depot.

 

[dsm363]

This is more about justifying the purchase of the ELR than anything else. It's a fine car for what it is and that's a PHEV-40. It's the cream of the crop of plug in hybrids and had a good EV only range. There's nothing wrong with that but with 4 seats and subpar performance for the price, more people who prize EV only driving have opted for the Model S than the ELR. The numbers don't lie here.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Oh, you're one of those who believe everything you read on the Internet?

Heaven's no. For example I don't believe what your wrote at all.

Also, a lot of people here see what they want to see, regardless of what is actually written.

Which is exactly what you have done. Watch me prove it.

the Voletc engine only assists the planetary gearset when the car is in Extended Range mode, and only then at high speeds or steep grades. The engine does not run at all (regardless of grade, speed, etc.) until the 16.5 kWh battery has been depleted below ~12.5 kWh (in the ELR... it's more like 11.5 kWh in the Volt).

Which is entirely consistent with

The internal combustion engine can run at a constant speed for both optimal efficiency and mechanical simplicity (i.e., there is no need for a multi-valve, multi- or variable-cam design). The Voltec, like the Prius, uses a planetary gearset to couple power from two sources to the wheels. Unlike the Prius, the Voltec only rarely drives the wheels with mechanical assist from the engine.[1][2][9] The Voltec could therefore be considered a power-split hybrid.

Therefore, I am absolutely correct when I say I don't use gas during my normal daily commute (about 90% of my driving).

Irrelevant. How you drive your car doesn't change how your car is built.
Here's someone that does the same thing as you, but they end up burning gas. But then again they wrote it on the internet so the must be lying.

I live in Maine. Last winter stuff was a bit messed but this winter the Volt will have a consistent set-up in our unheated garage. While I'm expecting the garage and plugging in to help moderate temperature, fact is that for 2 to 3 months of the year the average overnight low where I live is comfortably below the Very Cold ERDTT settings of 15F (I have a 2013). That means on my wife's morning commute the engine will run. She has a whopping 6 mile round trip commute. The fact that it runs the engine is annoying. They might think that since the engine's there they might as well use it, but it makes a nonsense of claims of it being an EREV and a mockery of all the Volt fanbois who criticize other PHEVs for having to run the engine for heat or performance. They may have covered the performance, but they failed to cover the climate problem and manufacturers of BEVs are able to do both. Even if most Americans don't deal with 15F temperatures, the default Volt cold setting is 35F and the default setting is also to allow ERDTT when pre-conditioning on the plug, which means unnecessary running of the engine for people in any locations that can get near or below freezing. The irony is that when marketing the Volt, GM's marketing first decided that the only thing about it worth marketing was that you go to the gas station much less often.

We go beyond range enough on longer trips that we aren't affected by the maintenance modes.

 

[ecarfan]

Posted by Blastphemy: "Sometimes you just want to coast without having to keep your foot on the accelerator to prevent the regen braking from kicking in. Regen paddles solve that problem with aplomb".

Yes, I can see that, but don't see a compelling reason for coasting. Is that a way to extend the EV range, and if so does it really make that much difference? I guess with such a limited range in the ELR every bit helps.

 

[dsm363]

Posted by Blastphemy: "Sometimes you just want to coast without having to keep your foot on the accelerator to prevent the regen braking from kicking in. Regen paddles solve that problem with aplomb".

Yes, I can see that, but don't see a compelling reason for coasting. Is that a way to extend the EV range, and if so does it really make that much difference? I guess with such a limited range every bit helps.

Costing is more efficient than regenerative breaking but it's not hard to do in the Model S. Turn regen to low and feather go pedal. Anyway, with a 5-8X bigger battery, I'll take the more pleasant one pedal driving experience than worrying about getting coasting just right with steering wheel paddles.

 

[derekt75]

Well most of the time still means you are lugging around gas and a gas engine that you rarely if ever use. If you almost never use it, why have it?

I lug around a huge battery whose capacity I rarely use.
Half of my battery is expensive, heavy, and usually unnecessary.

What's the difference between using a big battery as a range extender and using a gasoline engine as a range extender?
The gasoline engine can be refueled fast, while the battery can be refueled at home. The gasoline engine requires regular maintenance.
but let's not pretend that someone is irrational for choosing a range extending option when that's precisely what the 85 kWh battery is to most of us.

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Sometimes you just want to coast without having to keep your foot on the accelerator to prevent the regen braking from kicking in.

Interesting. I'm fine with leaving my foot on the accelerator. I have precise control over the amount of electric acceleration/deceleration without thinking about it.
I'm not really sure why it's better to take your foot off of the accelerator than to just leave it on there. Leaving it on the pedal allows me to adapt more quickly to what's going on than pulling it off. and I imagine it's not like cruise control where you can take your foot off for a while; you're talking just taking it off for a few seconds, right? Otherwise, there's always "Neutral".

I concede that the first time you drive Model S, the regen is jarring. but after a couple drives, it starts to make perfect sense.

I don't really have much desire to exactly coast since the conversion between kinetic energy and battery energy is rather efficient at low torque. If 0 acceleration is good, would 0.01 m/s² be better or -0.03 m/s² be better? With the Tesla model you can get whatever the driving situation prefers without dumping the energy into friction brakes.

 

[MikeC]

I lug around a huge battery whose capacity I rarely use.
Half of my battery is expensive, heavy, and usually unnecessary.

What's the difference between using a big battery as a range extender and using a gasoline engine as a range extender?
The gasoline engine can be refueled fast, while the battery can be refueled at home. The gasoline engine requires regular maintenance.
but let's not pretend that someone is irrational for choosing a range extending option when that's precisely what the 85 kWh battery is to most of us.

That's a fair point except that the bigger battery has benefits for performance, Supercharging speed, and battery longevity (fewer deep discharges), while the ICE extender has the drawbacks of, well, an ICE, which is presumably what we're trying to get away from in driving an EV in the first place.

 

[Blastphemy]

OK, you all know I love my ELR, but this review even made me roll my eyes a little bit (mostly because of the equal star ratings for acceleration):

FrontiersLA.com | Drive This, Not That: 2014 Tesla Model S vs. Cadillac ELR Electrolux

 

[rabar10]

I lug around a huge battery whose capacity I rarely use.
Half of my battery is expensive, heavy, and usually unnecessary.

What's the difference between using a big battery as a range extender and using a gasoline engine as a range extender?

You may rarely use the energy capacity of that huge battery, but I imagine you certainly use the power capacity -- that's what enables Tesla to put a 300-400hp motor on the car and get the blistering performance for which it's known and renowned.

A gasoline engine range extender does not get you that, unless you go the Fisker Karma route and require both engine and battery power to reach full electric motor power.

 

[dsm363]

I lug around a huge battery whose capacity I rarely use.
Half of my battery is expensive, heavy, and usually unnecessary.

What's the difference between using a big battery as a range extender and using a gasoline engine as a range extender?
The gasoline engine can be refueled fast, while the battery can be refueled at home. The gasoline engine requires regular maintenance.
but let's not pretend that someone is irrational for choosing a range extending option when that's precisely what the 85 kWh battery is to most of us.

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Interesting. I'm fine with leaving my foot on the accelerator. I have precise control over the amount of electric acceleration/deceleration without thinking about it.
I'm not really sure why it's better to take your foot off of the accelerator than to just leave it on there. Leaving it on the pedal allows me to adapt more quickly to what's going on than pulling it off. and I imagine it's not like cruise control where you can take your foot off for a while; you're talking just taking it off for a few seconds, right? Otherwise, there's always "Neutral".

I concede that the first time you drive Model S, the regen is jarring. but after a couple drives, it starts to make perfect sense.

I don't really have much desire to exactly coast since the conversion between kinetic energy and battery energy is rather efficient at low torque. If 0 acceleration is good, would 0.01 m/s² be better or -0.03 m/s² be better? With the Tesla model you can get whatever the driving situation prefers without dumping the energy into friction brakes.

I never said said someone was irrational for choosing a big battery pack or a range extender. I assume the point if buying the ELR is to drive EV most or all of the time. Otherwise why get it over any other Caddy. My point is that if driving electric really is that important to you and you can find a way for a BEV to work for 99% of daily trips then there is benefit to that. If you can then the Volt or ELR also a good option.

 

[Blastphemy]

A gasoline engine range extender does not get you that, unless you go the Fisker Karma route and require both engine and battery power to reach full electric motor power.

That's actually how the ELR works, but only in Extended Range mode (when ~12.5 kWh of the battery has been depleted). The only way the ELR can achieve Cadillac's advertised 0-60 in 7.8 seconds is in ER mode with the engine assisting. Otherwise, it's closer to 8.8 seconds 0-60 in EV-only mode. As I've asserted before, had Cadillac managed to improve the ELR's acceleration to even just 6.5 seconds 0-60, most of the people wouldn't be complaining about it appearing to be a dressed-up Volt (although I'm sure BEV proponents with tunnel vision would still be irrationally critical, even though ELR drivers are also doing our part to reduce pollution, reduce our reliance on terrorist oil, and mitigate climate change).