Cadillac ELR (Converj)

[strata8]

The ELR was rated recently by the EPA. 82 MPGe combined:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34770

So it consumes 8% more energy than the 85 kWh Model S despite weighing 580lb (260kg) less. Guessing those 20" wheels and higher Cd are to blame.

 

[Gear]

Definitely. Tastes are so subjective. I really am turned off by the recent Cadillac design language. All angles and boxy. I've always been a curvy car fan. Vettes, jags, porsches.

In general, I agree with you. I actually like the CTS in sedan form, however. I just don't think the styling lends itself well to 2-doors. As you said, however, tastes are subjective and that's just my 2 cents.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Jamie Kitman: “There’s been some criticism of the high price of the new Cadillac ELR [$75,995].”

Mark Reuss: “I don’t care, I really don’t care. Because it’s a really uninformed point of view.”

“The ELR’s about $1,400 bucks less than a Tesla on a comparable equipment basis, it’s got two doors, it’s a beautiful car. It’s not limited by range and it’s got the $7500 tax credit, which takes it to $67-ish, and it’s got a good lease rate.”

“No read on [sales] yet. But we’re not looking for big volume. It’s a beautiful car. My wife wants one. That’s the kind of person we want to sell it to —we’ve got three kids but two of them are going. Someone fiftyish. You don’t need an SUV anymore.”

“The ELR is a beautiful thing, the interior is handcrafted, it’s a beautiful car. So, I feel good about it.”


General Motors Product Development Chief Responds to Cadillac ELR Price Criticism by Saying "I Really Don’t Care" | Inside EVs

See the quote in the post...

 

[Gear]

See the quote in the post...

News at 11: GM Exec likes overpriced GM car, calls it "beautiful."

 

[scottf200]

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

 

[Gear]

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

Are you going to cancel your Model X purchase and get an expensive Volt to compliment your relatively cheap Volt? It's not hypocrisy. The car is overpriced. There is no car like the Model S at any price.

 

[mknox]

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

I was thinking the exact same thing. When I laid down my deposit almost a year before I got my car, it was based on the promise that the Model S would be a "$50,000 car". I don't think there's a $50k model any more, and I had to pretty much double that to get the options and equipment I wanted (and I don't even have the P version).

 

[JST]

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

There is a difference between cost and value. The Tesla, while expensive, is an impressive value--it does things literally no other car does and offers a driving experience comparable to or far better than anything similarly priced. Putting aside the fact that it never needs gas (which, of course, is huge), it can carry seven people and yet still looks like an exotic sports car.

The ELR does none of those things. By all accounts, it offers a driving experience far worse than cars costing half to two thirds as much. In terms of form, it is just another two door coupe with a cramped back seat--a layout that is a dime a dozen. It's plus column is limited to its styling, which is admittedly striking though not so different than anything else Cadillac offers.

Is it "worth" 85K? That's a very personal and individual question. But it's hardly hypocrisy to bemoan what GM has done here--slipped some new skin on a Volt and raised the price 100 percent, which is basically the opposite of what Tesla did with the Model S.

 

[qwk]

There is a difference between cost and value. The Tesla, while expensive, is an impressive value--it does things literally no other car does and offers a driving experience comparable to or far better than anything similarly priced. Putting aside the fact that it never needs gas (which, of course, is huge), it can carry seven people and yet still looks like an exotic sports car.

The ELR does none of those things. By all accounts, it offers a driving experience far worse than cars costing half to two thirds as much. In terms of form, it is just another two door coupe with a cramped back seat--a layout that is a dime a dozen. It's plus column is limited to its styling, which is admittedly striking though not so different than anything else Cadillac offers.

Is it "worth" 85K? That's a very personal and individual question. But it's hardly hypocrisy to bemoan what GM has done here--slipped some new skin on a Volt and raised the price 100 percent, which is basically the opposite of what Tesla did with the Model S.

Yep, price vs. value. Someone who is interested in the ELR obviously doesn't hold value in high regard. The majority of the Model S's early success was the value proposition it offered. Folks who usually spent under $30k on a car, bought the Model S because no other car on the planet offers what the Tesla has. This is obviously not going to happen with the ELR.

- - - Updated - - -

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

Hypocrisy like touting F to OPEC, while still filling their pockets? :wink:

 

[dsm363]

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

I think this is a little harsh. As others have said it's about perceived value not dollar amount. No one is making fun of someone for spending $80k on a car when they themselves spent at least that much on a Model S. Just what the ELR offers over the Volt doesn't justify doubling the price. There really is nothing like the Model S. This doesn't make the ELR a bad car and if someone wants to buy it they have every right to of course. As long as they are happy that's all that really matters.

 

[jomo25]

I think this is a little harsh. As others have said it's about perceived value not dollar amount. No one is making fun of someone for spending $80k on a car when they themselves spent at least that much on a Model S. Just what the ELR offers over the Volt doesn't justify doubling the price. There really is nothing like the Model S. This doesn't make the ELR a bad car and if someone wants to buy it they have every right to of course. As long as they are happy that's all that really matters.

Agreed it is harsh. And value is in the eye of the beholder. It's why my opinions are mine only. But I would venture a guess that there will be more people with a view similar to mine than not. Sales would be one way to see that. Awards and positive reviews will be another. The volt itself has won a very impressive list of awards. Mostly because it was unique and was 'first' in many things. The issue is the ELR's list of 'firsts' is much smaller, yet it's price is much higher.

It doesn't make my view more right, but it does show it's more common.

My parting shot would be this: Tesla is obviously sustaining (and thriving) selling the MS because of its perceived value proposition, even if the price is higher than the ELR. However, if the ELR was the only product offering of a nascent company like Tesla, I don't think the value proposition would attract enough customers to survive.

 

[dsm363]

Exactly. If Tesla had come out with a ELR type vehicle only to compete against the Volt they would be crushed.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The hypocrisy from people regularly paying $90-$110K for Tesla is pretty impressive. Elon has no apologies for charging that. Horses for courses.

Well for one, the ELR would be beaten off the line by a Honda Fit, while the Model S runs head to head with cars in its price range. And you can also buy a Volt at half the price with very similar capabilities to the ELR (in some respects better), while the Model S does not have any equivalent in the market.

And in general just because you bought a car that cost more doesn't mean you can't comment on the value of a car that costs less.

 

[WarpedOne]

10% less for 80% less is a very bad deal.

 

[Blastphemy]

Here's an amazing example of how poorly Cadillac does at justifying the price of the ELR:

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/review-cadillac-elr-worth-75000-2014-3

When the reviewer asks Chris Thomason (the ELR's chief engineer) why the car has a base price of $75k, Chris answers, "It's an all-in type vehicle, so the base vehicle has all-LED lighting - headlamps and taillamps. As far as the cut & sow interior - the leather, the premium materials - that's base on this car; it's extra on others." So there you have it: GM believes the ELR is worth $75k because it has LED lights, leather, and wood. Amazing. (As if no other $75k car has LED lights and leather!)

No mention of any real expensive features (see below), nor any explanation how this is one of the few concept cars to arrive nearly intact from the futuristic design showcased at the auto shows, nor any attempt to dismiss the premise of the question by demonstrating how the ELR stacks up to comparable $75k ICE cars - having many of the same luxury features PLUS electric drive PLUS an amazing aesthetic design PLUS an even quieter cabin.

Why are engineers riding around with reviewers instead of marketing people?! Absolutely incredible. If Tesla can sell a $100k car with limited range and few luxury features, why can't Cadillac sell a $75k car with unlimited range and a plethora of luxury features? Ridiculous.

Every single person on this and other forums who dismisses the ELR as being an overpriced Volt and waste of money compared to the Model S has every right to feel that way since GM doesn't seem to know how to communicate the most basic of messages explaining the value inherent in this car.

Why is it so difficult for Cadillac to express why the ELR isn't just a rebadged Volt and has some advantages over the Model S that certain discerning buyers will appreciate more? For example, here's a list of everything I could think of in the ELR that you can't get on a Chevy Volt:

• Regen Paddles
• Full-speed-range Adaptive Cruise Control
• Side Blind Zone Alert
• Lane Departure Warning
• Forward Collision Alert
• Rear Cross-Traffic Alert
• superior high-end Bose 10-speaker sound system
• LED headlamps, daytime running lamps, and taillamps
• Interior accent lighting
• Luxury front seats with 20 separate available adjustments
• accented leather incorporating sueded microfiber, chrome, wood, and carbon fiber finishes
• key fob tied to the driver's seat & mirror memory positions
• C.U.E. Infotainment system
• 20-inch Bridgestone Potenza RE97AS Eco 245/40 tires that provide superior traction
• fully recalibrated and reprogrammed software for powertrain control systems
• premium ZF electric power steering system
• front HiPer Strut suspension
• rear compound-crank with Watt’s link suspension
• ZF-Sachs continuous damping control
• 7.8 seconds from 0-60 in Extended Range (ER) mode
• superior acceleration from 50-80 in EV mode (and even faster in ER mode)
• an improved reverse camera
• acoustically laminated windshield
• thicker front-door glass
• liquid-applied sound deadener applied to the floor pan, trunk and roof
• triple-sealed doors with acoustic perimeter water deflectors
• mass-efficient sound-absorbing dash mat and carpet system
• acoustic foam baffles inside body cavities and in between inner and outer quarter panels
• an isolated front suspension cradle with hydraulic powertrain mounts to isolate road and engine vibration
• Bose active noise cancellation system
• Power button moved far away from the Drive Mode button
• Improved steering wheel controls
• Heated steering wheel
• One of the most distinctive, sexy exteriors of any car near its price range
• And, of course, a powered cup holder cover!

That is why the ELR is twice as expensive as a Volt. If you go drive a Volt then drive an ELR, you'll see it's not even the same car. I'm not saying that much (if any) of the equipment is groundbreaking since most of it is available on other GM cars; but if people are willing to pay $40k for a fully-loaded 2014 Volt, then adding everything above to that at least brings one closer to accepting an $80k ELR that, with current lease incentives, only costs about $800/mo (compared to an $80k Lexus LS460 that costs $1,200/mo as of last week according to my coworker who was considering it).

Granted, the ELR's EV range is 1 less than the 2013/14 Volt; the back seat has less headroom so your rear passengers need to be shorter; back seat access is more difficult due to having only two coupe doors instead of four compact sedan doors; the lack of a hatchback decreases the storage space and accessibility of the trunk; the EV-mode 0-60 acceleration time is identical to the Volt; and the ELR's 0.305 coefficient of drag is just slightly worst than the Volt's 0.28 (neither of which are as good as Tesla's 0.24). Those negatives bothered me at first, but now that I've driven the car for a month, I don't even think about them since I'm so busy enjoying everything else!

Now, I realize this is a Tesla forum, and that this ELR thread was not created to extol the benefits of the ELR over the Model S, but it's very evident that some people trolling the forum are just spouting their uninformed nonsense because it makes them feel better about the $70~120k they dropped on the Model S. Believe me: I get it - we have a reservation in for a Model X, and I'm quite sure I'll be needing some online validation after dropping that kind of change on a car when I could buy a house for it! But if you take the time to test drive an ELR, you'll see that it's does have certain distinct advantages over the Model S (and huge advantages over the Volt) if you can just get over the fact that the ELR can't accelerate as fast as or hold as many passengers as a Model S.

I wonder if the people complaining about the ELR being a coupe also bitched about the $109k+ Tesla Roadster only having two seats (i.e., two fewer than the ELR)? Compare the ELR to the Roadster and, aside from acceleration, think of how much more you get for $30k less! Of course, if all you want is a 100% electric car, then I guess you would have paid $30k more for the Roadster. Sorry that you can't hear yourself think due to the road noise and have your fillings jarred out every time you hit a bump. And I hope you're in excellent shape, because otherwise you may not be able to get out of the car since the seats are so low to the ground and unergonomic! I still remember my eye-opening test drive I took years ago, and couldn't believe anyone would be so anti-gas as to spend $109k on that car when you could get superior cars for half the price... which is exactly what everyone here is saying about the ELR! lol.

Some people are just not rational or logical and don't have any sense of perspective... what can I say? Nothing we can do about it, so enjoy what you love, even if others think you're nuts!

 

[jomo25]

Now, I realize this is a Tesla forum, and that this ELR thread was not created to extol the benefits of the ELR over the Model S, but it's very evident that some people trolling the forum are just spouting their uninformed nonsense because it makes them feel better about the $70~120k they dropped on the Model S. Believe me: I get it - we have a reservation in for a Model X, and I'm quite sure I'll be needing some online validation after dropping that kind of change on a car when I could buy a house for it! But if you take the time to test drive an ELR, you'll see that it's does have certain distinct advantages over the Model S (and huge advantages over the Volt) if you can just get over the fact that the ELR can't accelerate as fast as or hold as many passengers as a Model S.

You hurt your credibility with passages like this IMO. i have a Volt. I think it was money well spent. I got an MS after it. Money even better spent IMO. And I'm not just posting that to make myself feel better. I'd readily say otherwise if it was the case. I don't need any validation, online or otherwise. Just my own satisfaction that no other vehicle today fits my life better than what I bought.

 

[qwk]

If Tesla can sell a $100k car with limited range and few luxury features, why can't Cadillac sell a $75k car with unlimited range and a plethora of luxury features? Ridiculous.

This statement pretty much sums up why GM and the rest of the existing auto industry will go belly-up.

Tesla sells cars for that much because their cars haul a$$, while using 0 gas. Technologically, there is nothing else like it. There isn't any shortage of expensive luxury ICE vehicles, so the ELR is DOA. This isn't that hard to figure out. Apple didn't become huge because there was a shortage of CD players, or flip phones.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If Tesla can sell a $100k car with limited range and few luxury features, why can't Cadillac sell a $75k car with unlimited range and a plethora of luxury features? Ridiculous.

Well, because the features you mentioned are all available on other GM vehicles for a lot less, people are seeing it hard to justify the $40k premium. Nor should it cost that much if Voltec was added to other existing GM vehicles. GM isn't doing a very good job of justifying the cost, because they themselves know they are just using the vehicle to milk as much profit as possible before the second generation Voltec (they haven't tried to hide that). That's why it's made in limited volume and GM isn't expecting it to sell beyond that. GM certainly would sell some of these vehicles, but not many at this price.

I wonder if the people complaining about the ELR being a coupe also bitched about the $109k+ Tesla Roadster only having two seats (i.e., two fewer than the ELR)?

People didn't complain about the number of seats, but they surely complained about how cramped it was and how hard it was to get in and out of the car. However, the deficiencies were mostly forgiven because the Roadster was such a groundbreaking vehicle for obvious reasons (even Lutz said it inspired GM to pursue the Volt). In the same vein, if the ELR came out before the Volt (or if it at least featured second generation technology) then I doubt you would hear the complaints right now. However, since the Volt came out first and the ELR doesn't really advance the technology in any significant way, it becomes hard to see it as anything other than a dressed up Volt.

 

[scottf200]

Are you going to cancel your Model X purchase and get an expensive Volt to compliment your relatively cheap Volt? It's not hypocrisy. The car is overpriced. There is no car like the Model S at any price.

Why is is so hard for people to have more than one perspective on
... what different buyers (looks,styles,pref)
... at different stages of their lives (kids, etc)
... and different comfort levels with range (go off SC path)???

It is crazy to me that everyone thinks their near-perfect cars definition should match every other buyers. 0-60 times and 7 seats is the not the ultimate criteria. If you have that many kids, that you need 7 seats I hope you are saving for retirement and college first before the car payment!! I suspect many do but also guess some are over their head. To each their own in their money management and retirement timeline.

A major criteria of mine: I like the smooth electric drivetrain and regen braking. I've gotten that in my Volt for 28.8K of grid only miles (same as driving a S for 28.8K). For that other 10K of gas miles, I still get the electric drive feel and regen breaking. It is much better than ICE only.

There are certainly buyers that the ELR fits and that price doesn't matter just like the $90-$110 prices of the S doesn't matter.

That list of 25-30 differences between the Volt and the ELR is pretty great (and several not avail on the S) ... and it is very telling for those that simply ignore it and say the ELR is an expensive Volt in a different clothes. It is an electric drivetrain with regen braking.

Yes, I'm keeping my two reservations for the Model X and will decide which one fits bets. I've become comfortable with the limited range of the Tesla's based on where I will drive in a radius around me or on the SC path. If there is ONE thing I've learned in 3 years of talking about plug-ins it is that people have vastly different tolerances and perspectives on the benefits of driving electric. Most are very comfortable in their ICE world and love their perceived pros of that.

Why is it so difficult for Cadillac to express why the ELR isn't just a rebadged Volt and has some advantages over the Model S that certain discerning buyers will appreciate more? For example, here's a list of everything I could think of in the ELR that you can't get on a Chevy Volt:

• Regen Paddles
• Full-speed-range Adaptive Cruise Control
• Side Blind Zone Alert
• Lane Departure Warning
• Forward Collision Alert
• Rear Cross-Traffic Alert
• superior high-end Bose 10-speaker sound system
• LED headlamps, daytime running lamps, and taillamps
• Interior accent lighting
• Luxury front seats with 20 separate available adjustments
• accented leather incorporating sueded microfiber, chrome, wood, and carbon fiber finishes
• key fob tied to the driver's seat & mirror memory positions
• C.U.E. Infotainment system
• 20-inch Bridgestone Potenza RE97AS Eco 245/40 tires that provide superior traction
• fully recalibrated and reprogrammed software for powertrain control systems
• premium ZF electric power steering system
• front HiPer Strut suspension
• rear compound-crank with Watt’s link suspension
• ZF-Sachs continuous damping control
• 7.8 seconds from 0-60 in Extended Range (ER) mode
• superior acceleration from 50-80 in EV mode (and even faster in ER mode)
• an improved reverse camera
• acoustically laminated windshield
• thicker front-door glass
• liquid-applied sound deadener applied to the floor pan, trunk and roof
• triple-sealed doors with acoustic perimeter water deflectors
• mass-efficient sound-absorbing dash mat and carpet system
• acoustic foam baffles inside body cavities and in between inner and outer quarter panels
• an isolated front suspension cradle with hydraulic powertrain mounts to isolate road and engine vibration
• Bose active noise cancellation system
• Power button moved far away from the Drive Mode button
• Improved steering wheel controls
• Heated steering wheel
• One of the most distinctive, sexy exteriors of any car near its price range
• And, of course, a powered cup holder cover!

That is why the ELR is twice as expensive as a Volt. If you go drive a Volt then drive an ELR, you'll see it's not even the same car. I'm not saying that much (if any) of the equipment is groundbreaking...

Thanks for posting that list in one place. I knew of many differences but it didn't seem like there were that many.

I hope for $100K we can both get Adaptive Cruise Control on the Model X at least.

 

[dsm363]

Why is is so hard for people to have more than one perspective on
... what different buyers (looks,styles,pref)
... at different stages of their lives (kids, etc)
... and different comfort levels with range (go off SC path)???

It is crazy to me that everyone thinks their near-perfect cars definition should match every other buyers. 0-60 times and 7 seats is the not the ultimate criteria.

A major criteria of mine: I like the smooth electric drivetrain and regen braking. I've gotten that in my Volt for 28.8K of grid only miles (same as driving a S for 28.8K). For that other 10K of gas miles, I still get the electric drive feel and regen breaking. It is much better than ICE only.

There are certainly buyers that the ELR fits and that price doesn't matter just like the $90-$110 prices of the S doesn't matter.

That list of 25-30 differences between the Volt and the ELR is pretty great (and several not avail on the S) ... and it is very telling for those that simply ignore it and say the ELR is an expensive Volt in a different clothes. It is an electric drivetrain with regen braking.

Yes, I'm keeping my two reservations for the Model X and will decide which one fits bets. I've become comfortable with the limited range of the Tesla's based on where I will drive in a radius around me or on the SC path. If there is ONE thing I've learned in 3 years of talking about plug-ins it is that people have vastly different tolerances and perspectives on the benefits of driving electric. Most are very comfortable in their ICE world and love their perceived pros of that.


Thanks for posting that list in one place. I knew of many differences but it didn't seem like there were that many.

That's not what I'm saying at least. If someone can only get one car, wants a luxury car and doesn't mind limited seating and wants gas backup then yes, I can understand the ELR. Still think it is a nice Volt with some feature the Model S doesn't yet have. I don't think people are saying no one should buy it, just that they think it is overpriced for what it is. Are you going to sell your Volt for the ELR some day? If not, why wouldn't you consider it instead of the Volt? I think you believe people are attacking the Volt/ELR concept. This is a Tesla forum so obviously a lot of people who see and like the benefits of EV only driving. You even pride yourself on how little gas you've used so it is not hard to imagine why many here can't seem to find the value in the ELR. If I could only have one car and long trips without charging were a big factor for me I would consider the Volt.