Cadillac ELR (Converj)

[dsm363]

Have you ever been to the Tesla website? All you need to do is go to the Design Center and click on P85 and then Cash to see the $84,570 figure (which is actually $92,070 since no one gets a $7,500 rebate at the time of purchase). It's the only version of the Model S that accelerates 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.

If you'd prefer to compare the acceleration of the P60 Model S, sure - that one costs $61,070 (but really $68,570) and accelerates 0-60 in 5.9 seconds... less than two seconds faster than the $68,059 (but really $75,995) ELR in extended range mode. But remember that the base P60 Model S at that price is not supercharger enabled, nor does it have many of the luxury features found in the ELR.

I already covered that price comparison thoroughly earlier in this thread, so I'm not going rehash the facts here.

I have. You said starting price but used a P85 to prove your point which blows the ELR out of the water in terms of performance. The 60kWh Model S (there is no P60) still outperforms the ELR by almost 2 seconds as you said for a few thousand less, seats more, is likely a safer car too. Yes, it lacks the luxury features you require though. Supercharger access adds $2,000 so brings it a few thousand below the ELR still. The same tax credit applies for the ELR in terms of not getting it at purchase.

 

[rolosrevenge]

To hit that 100k miles, the CTS doesn't need to stop for more than 5 minutes to fill up, and has tens of thousands of gas stations from which to choose all over the country. The Model S is restricted to a much smaller number of existing superchargers, and 5 minutes isn't going to give you another 300-400 miles. Of course, you could always use the battery swap at the supercharger instead (only if that ever gets installed, of course) to 'fill up the tank' of your Model S in a couple of minutes, but then you too will be paying ~$80 for every 200-300 miles.

To hit 100k miles, the Model S doesn't have to stop anywhere, just your garage when you plug it in. No more out of the way trips just to buy gas. No more starting the car in the morning to see you need gas. No more having to think of whether or not to stop and get gas at a particular station because it seems cheaper. Start every day with 300 miles of range. For the last 3 years of my life that would have taken me EVERYWHERE I've ever driven. I'd only need to charge overnight. Now THAT is the true definition of freedom in my mind.

 

[dsm363]

^^^
You are completely missing the point. Not too many people spending over $60k are going to settle for acceleration comparable to a Camry, while still driving a car that burns gasoline. That's why sales are pathetic, and it was very easy to predict. $60k+ isn't chump change, and people willing to spend that kind of money want value. Why do you think the Model S sales are so high?

As I posted up thread, it's actually almost two seconds slower to 60 that the V6 Camry! All for over $30k more. That's blasphemy to some since performance isn't everything but it has to factor into a buyer's thinking when buying a $70k+ car.

 

[dsm363]

To hit 100k miles, the Model S doesn't have to stop anywhere, just your garage when you plug it in. No more out of the way trips just to buy gas. No more starting the car in the morning to see you need gas. No more having to think of whether or not to stop and get gas at a particular station because it seems cheaper. Start every day with 300 miles of range. For the last 3 years of my life that would have taken me EVERYWHERE I've ever driven. I'd only need to charge overnight. Now THAT is the true definition of freedom in my mind.

Exactly. One person's 'freedom' is different than another's. For Blasphemy it sounds like it means staying in EV mode as much as possible but the idea that going on a 1,200 mile trip once or twice a year is possible with 5 min fill ups is possible far outweighs any other concerns. For me, if that was a requirement give be EV only driving 99% of year and I'll rent an Enterprise car the other few days of the year if that really is a big issue.

 

[qwk]

For me, if that was a requirement give be EV only driving 99% of year and I'll rent an Enterprise car the other few days of the year if that really is a big issue.

I thought the same thing, but having had the Model S for over a year, driving an ICE isn't an option, and an RV park stop a few times a year isn't really that bad(compared to driving a rental car).

Having not been to the gas station for over a year, and no oil changes ever again, is the best feeling in the world.

 

[Gear]

To add further insult, Tesla's listed performance numbers are very conservative. The S60 has been consistently run from 0-60 in 5.1 seconds by DragTimes. They, and other review publications, have also run the P85 to 60 in 3.9 seconds. That makes the gap even larger. Keep in mind, as well, that the Model S doesn't need to burn down the battery until a gas engine kicks in to get its optimum performance figure. GM likes to tout that the electric range of the Volt and ELR is enough, by itself, for something like 90% of your driving. So that means for 90% of your driving, you can only accelerate to 60 in 8.8 seconds.

Let's also keep in mind that even if it were only "almost 2 seconds quicker," that's actually a considerable difference. Acceleration is, by definition, exponential.

 

[dsm363]

Also beat anywhere from 1-3 seconds by the Honda Accord. I'm sure it's a nice car but you really need to want limited EV range and 4 seats for it to hit the sweet spot.

2013 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L (Auto) 0-60 mph 5.5 Quarter Mile 13.9

 

[Blastphemy]

Again, acceleration isn't everything. Perhaps for Tesla owners on a Tesla forum, it is everything, but there are refinements in the ELR that more than compensate for not being able to accelerate like a madman. The ELR is faster than any Prius, the ELR can beat a lot of so-called "faster" ICE cars off the line with its instant torque (just like the Volt), and merging into traffic & passing on the freeway is very easy in the ELR, so that's all I really care about in terms of acceleration.

The feature I actually care about and use the most is the full-range Adaptive Cruise Control. The car basically drives itself (similar to the new 2014 Mercedes-Benz S550), with the ELR adjusting its speed to maintain a driver-defined safe distance between the car in front, all the way down to a complete stop (where the ELR stays until I touch the accelerator, at which point it engages ACC again). I use it both on the highway and on side streets, and it makes driving absolutely serene. All the regen braking, acceleration, and even staying within the lane is taken care of automatically. Can't quite read a book while commuting, but it's as close to that as I've ever seen in a car!

I do agree with everyone on the forum that the ELR should be able to accelerate faster than the Volt. It's a perplexing decision by Cadillac (or perhaps an unfortunate limitation of the Voltec system, although I don't believe that for one second since I've seen aftermarket tunings performed that can give the Volt some serious get-up-and-go). Perhaps Cadillac was so fixated on maximizing the total electric range that it lost sight of the fact that the ELR would be the only $75k+ car that couldn't go 0-60 in less than 7 seconds?

Regardless, the ELR is much more than just its acceleration. The styling, interior front seat comfort, exquisite sound system, impressive luxury technology, and overall refinement make this car a stunner, especially for anyone who would buy a luxury 2+2 anyway and has money to burn (or can afford an equivalent $60k lease on a Lexus GS 450h, which is what the ELR is going for from GM Financial and Ally Bank with the the ultra-low rent charge and $7,500 tax credit factored into the residual price).

I'm quite happy to trade off some acceleration for the ability to drive electric. My solar panels provide the energy for the car, which makes it even less expensive to operate. And if I fill up the 9 gallon tank more than 4-5 times a year, it will be extremely unusual (as this year will be, since I had that unexpected 1,200 mile 18 hour drive from L.A. to Montana which would have been extremely difficult - if not impossible - in a Model S).

 

[RobStark]

Acceleration isn't everything but it is quite a bit in a coupe that starts at $76K and the sales numbers tell us that buyers of cars in the $76k-$90k agree with Model S owners in a Tesla forum.

 

[dsm363]

Acceleration isn't everything but it's about optics. Dropping $75k on a car and finding out it barely outperforms a Civic and can get smoked by an Accord should be embarrassing for Cadillac. If they had simply improved any performance or efficiency characteristic of the car I could justify the price (in my mind). 50 mile EV range or 0-60 in 6 seconds for example. Something. That takes nothing away from the greatly improved interior you talk about or the stereo upgrade...etc. I just think they didn't really think this through. They just thought 'we will improve the interior and add a tech feature or two and double the price'.

You've pointed out multiple times an EV like the Model S can't take a 1,200 mile trip to remote places with minimal and quick stops. We all understand this limitation and why any car that accepts gas as primary fuel or for a backup generator excels in this area and will for a long time.

 

[mknox]

You've pointed out multiple times an EV like the Model S can't take a 1,200 mile trip to remote places with minimal and quick stops. We all understand this limitation and why any car that accepts gas as primary fuel or for a backup generator excels in this area and will for a long time.

But to be fair a lot of people keep pointing out the ELR's lackluster acceleration which we all understand as well. I tend to agree with Blastphemy that acceleration is often over-rated as long as the car can perform reasonably well in real-life traffic.

 

[Blastphemy]

You've pointed out multiple times an EV like the Model S can't take a 1,200 mile trip to remote places with minimal and quick stops. We all understand this limitation and why any car that accepts gas as primary fuel or for a backup generator excels in this area and will for a long time.

Just as you (and others) have pointed out multiple times that the ELR is barely faster than a Civic and can't beat a V6 Accord 0-60 (although I've smoked a few off the line 0-35). We're all pretty much beating a dead horse. People who want the Model S will buy it, and people who want the ELR will buy it. In both cases, it's a win for the environment, a win for the future of cars, and a win for the respective owners.

Acceleration isn't everything but it's about optics. Dropping $75k on a car and finding out it barely outperforms a Civic and can get smoked by an Accord should be embarrassing for Cadillac. If they had simply improved any performance or efficiency characteristic of the car I could justify the price (in my mind). 50 mile EV range or 0-60 in 6 seconds for example. Something. That takes nothing away from the greatly improved interior you talk about or the stereo upgrade...etc. I just think they didn't really think this through. They just thought 'we will improve the interior and add a tech feature or two and double the price'.

As I said in my previous (and other) posts, I agree with this. Doesn't mean the upgrades that were put into the car aren't worth it, though. I'll never go back to a Volt...ever!

 

[dsm363]

But to be fair a lot of people keep pointing out the ELR's lackluster acceleration which we all understand as well. I tend to agree with Blastphemy that acceleration is often over-rated as long as the car can perform reasonably well in real-life traffic.

I agree. I'm sure the ELR handles just fine in traffic as any car with a sub 8 second time does. I just don't see why they couldn't have improved a single performance or efficiency variable for the added cost.

 

[Blastphemy]

I just don't see why they couldn't have improved a single performance or efficiency variable for the added cost.

If you want to know why, just look at Cadillac's public comments about the ELR. GM's executives are totally in denial:

Cadillac exec: 'I am not afraid of Tesla' | MLive.com

The opportunity for electrified vehicles in the luxury market, according to Ellinghaus, isn't coming from customers who necessarily want fuel-efficient vehicles. Instead, it's coming from customers not wanting to sacrifice performance for better gas mileage. There is no willingness to really sacrifice on the traditional qualities of a luxury car," he said. "These are not cars for tree huggers, as tree huggers do not buy new luxury cars."

So Ellinghaus says we ELR owners don't want to sacrifice performance, but then he gives us a car that effectively has no outstanding performance! And Ellinghaus apparently hasn't noticed all the "tree huggers" who have paid in excess of $100k for their Roadster and Model S cars. I guess "tree huggers" don't buy new luxury cars, but they sure as heck buy expensive cars! Cadillac executives have their heads up their ass. I think I'm lucky the ELR is as good as it is considering the misguided attitudes of every GM executive who opens his/her mouth!

It doesn't help that the article is not accurate with some of its numbers (saying the ELR averages 35 miles per charge rather than the actual 37). At least it gets the comparable Tesla prices correct, unlike most articles (which usually list the ELR at MSRP and then list the Model S at MSRP minus $7,500, even though both are eligible for that Federal tax credit).

 

[ecarfan]

Cadillac exec: 'I am not afraid of Tesla' | MLive.com

The opportunity for electrified vehicles in the luxury market, according to Ellinghaus, isn't coming from customers who necessarily want fuel-efficient vehicles. Instead, it's coming from customers not wanting to sacrifice performance for better gas mileage. There is no willingness to really sacrifice on the traditional qualities of a luxury car," he said. "These are not cars for tree huggers, as tree huggers do not buy new luxury cars."

My wife and I are happy to be labeled "tree huggers, and she sold her Prius to get a Model S.

As usual, GM is clueless.

 

[qwk]

If you want to know why, just look at Cadillac's public comments about the ELR. GM's executives are totally in denial:

Cadillac exec: 'I am not afraid of Tesla' | MLive.com

The opportunity for electrified vehicles in the luxury market, according to Ellinghaus, isn't coming from customers who necessarily want fuel-efficient vehicles. Instead, it's coming from customers not wanting to sacrifice performance for better gas mileage. There is no willingness to really sacrifice on the traditional qualities of a luxury car," he said. "These are not cars for tree huggers, as tree huggers do not buy new luxury cars."

So Ellinghaus says we ELR owners don't want to sacrifice performance, but then he gives us a car that effectively has no outstanding performance! And Ellinghaus apparently hasn't noticed all the "tree huggers" who have paid in excess of $100k for their Roadster and Model S cars. I guess "tree huggers" don't buy new luxury cars, but they sure as heck buy expensive cars! Cadillac executives have their heads up their ass. I think I'm lucky the ELR is as good as it is considering the misguided attitudes of every GM executive who opens his/her mouth!

It doesn't help that the article is not accurate with some of its numbers (saying the ELR averages 35 miles per charge rather than the actual 37). At least it gets the comparable Tesla prices correct, unlike most articles (which usually list the ELR at MSRP and then list the Model S at MSRP minus $7,500, even though both are eligible for that Federal tax credit).

This is the kind of nonsense that people support by buying a GM vehicle. Supporting incompetence and stupidity never ends well.

 

[dsm363]

Tree huggers never had a viable option before the Model S in a pure electric car and the ELR for a hybrid. Everything else he got wrong. If he was being serious and not just trying to spin for GM then that says a lot about their understanding of the market.

 

[Blastphemy]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

 

[dsm363]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

Who said we are ignoring every possible feature? In a year maybe two the Model S should have the tech features you hold up as making it a superior car to the Model S as well. Probably wouldn't spend a $100,000 for a performance car with acceleration that slow. It would be embarrassing and prove to the public hat electric cars suck. Even worse than 8.8 seconds. The threshold is different for everyone as to what is enough. Would I still consider the Model S with that slow performance? Sure as there is nothing else like it but part of the joy is the instant and seemly never ending acceleration. Can't get that in most other ICEs.

The ELR is a very nice car. Congrats. Wether it is worth the $75k is what the debate here is. You think it is of course. I and others don't but that is why we have choices in the market so I see that as a great thing. And the fact that the ELR has an EV mode that allows gas free driving had to be a factor in your decision just like acceleration was for other people right? So now multiple your EV range x 8 and you'll see why many find the Model S compelling on too of 4 second 60 time. Yes, doesn't have 'unlimited' range like the ELR but that's less than 1% of my driving where quick refills needed.

 

[Gear]

I wonder how many people would still have bought their Model S if it accelerated 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with no "Performance" model available? Would those people who answer in the affirmative have paid the same price?

Interesting to ponder while discussing the merits of the ELR, with many Tesla owners/fans ignoring every positive feature while fixating on its slower acceleration.

I wouldn't have.