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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

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You do realize that Toyota has the 2nd best selling *EV right? You also realize they definitely know how to mass produce vehicles.

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Nice redirection from what GM is doing and why they are not working hard to push and sell large volumes.

P.S. GM and Ford were forced to get better mileage :) Gas prices were down. They didn't do it because they felt it was a good thing to do :)

Did Toyota sell almost 3 times as many Zero Emissions Vehicles as Tesla?

You do know what a Zero Emissions Vehicle is, right? H2, BEV, CNG (Calif).

And if gas prices were the motivating factor for ICE efficiency technologies, how come Toyota doesn't care?

ICE efficiency was a byproduct of the horsepower wars. Improvements in BSFC mean you win against your competition.

I'm guessing that chart doesn't mean what you think it does. Ford? Mercedes? Really?
 
Did Toyota sell almost 3 times as many Zero Emissions Vehicles as Tesla?
You do know what a Zero Emissions Vehicle is, right? H2, BEV, CNG (Calif).
And if gas prices were the motivating factor for ICE efficiency technologies, how come Toyota doesn't care?
ICE efficiency was a byproduct of the horsepower wars. Improvements in BSFC mean you win against your competition.
I'm guessing that chart doesn't mean what you think it does. Ford? Mercedes? Really?

a) From the article it stats 55% can be earned from PHEVs. b) see my comment below
Calculating the ZEV Credit Percentage - In 2018 the ZEV Credit Percentage requirement is 4.5% of all vehicles sold by a manufacturer. For Large Vehicle Manufacturers, 45% of these credits must come from vehicles that California considers Zero Emission Vehicles. This means Battery Electric (BEV) and Fuel Cell (HFCV). The remaining 55% can be earned primarily from other electrified vehicles such as Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV).

I know you put the * there, but it isn't an EV. While it has an "EV" mode even Toyota calls it a "2018 Toyota Prius Prime Plug-In Hybrid". And if you put it in EV mode you can get up to 25 miles of range? That might get me to work, but then I would be stranded.

Indeed I did put * in *EV. I'm not saying I like the Toyota PIP, I was saying they do know how to build cars in mass production and cars for a target audience they are going for. The sales chart SHOWS that![/quote][/quote]
 
a) From the article it stats 55% can be earned from PHEVs. b) see my comment below

Indeed I did put * in *EV. I'm not saying I like the Toyota PIP, I was saying they do know how to build cars in mass production and cars for a target audience they are going for. The sales chart SHOWS that!
[/quote][/QUOTE]

Still. Toyota sold under 80,000 BEV, PHEV, H2 cars in the whole US since they started playing with ZEV and PHEV tech. >2/3 are PiPs.

Even if you assumed 100% credit for each Toyota PiP, Nissan sold about 100,000 Leaf BEVs in the USA yet Toyota has 50% more credits.

Either the data is bogus, or somebody stacked the deck. I remember when you could drive a gasoline hybrid in the HOV lane when you weren't allowed to run on battery.
 
CNG? When did burning natural gas become zero emissions?

{TILT}

Before the latest standards updates, credits could be earned in more ways.

CNGVs earned partial credit: 0.7 per vehicle.

Similarly, HEVs earned AT-PZEV credits. Toyota have banked a lot of them. Older credits are not worth full credit now, but they're still valuable.

As well as the Prime earning TZEV credits, (0.9 each?) each Mirai earns them 4 credits.
No rush for Toyota to release a BEV.
 
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Sure as hell beats my 26 month since order, 10 month since production delay for my Model 3.

You might get Model 3's in Canada, but we don't get them in California. Maybe 1 out of 10 pre-orders have been invited for the 3LR PUP out here far away from the Tesla factory. But we are promised California will get the cars first, so hope springs eternal. I just saw my second one yesterday, and I drive where Model S/Xs are thick.

Bolts have averaged about 175 units in Canada per month. April was 171. It's not a big market for them, and IIRC, there is a Canada specific recall on wiper motors that has no solution yet.

Tesla has been diverting cars internationally to keep from hitting 200K before July 1. Most of the Model 3s sold in the US in the last month have been sold in Washington which had a tax credit that expired May 31. Those who responded to their reservation too late got pushed from May 31 delivery to early July.

Since Mary Barra said she expects GM be able to sell EVs at a profit by 2021, it's likely they are losing some money on each Bolt sale (before any ZEV credit calcs), or breaking even. I think it should be pretty obvious that the Bolt is merely a stepping stone to GM's ultimate goal of going all-electric. The Bolt as a car was never going to be a high volume seller. But GM definitely has big plans for the Bolt as a platform.
Like I said elsewhere, slow and steady will win the race.
Perhaps Tesla's fast and furious will work out for them in the end too. Hopefully, as if Tesla goes belly up that would set back EVs as a whole tremendously.

When traditional car companies have some cutting edge tech, they usually do a somewhat limited production run so they can do a beta test in the field with the new tech without having to deal with loads of recalls if a serious problem crops up. GM tested the 4/6/8 engine in a limited production run of Cadillacs in the 90s, discontinued them for a while, now brought them back in many more cars. They also tested airbags in some Oldsmobile Toronados in the 70s.

GM has three reasons not to push the Bolt at this time. First they couldn't mass produce it if they wanted to. They don't have access to enough batteries. They could probably make a few more than they do, but estimates are 50K is about the limit of their batteries. Secondly by selling the Bolt nationally, they get some real world exposure to EVs in parts of the US where they haven't sold EVs before. This is a test for dealers, service, as well as what happens on the road. But it isn't out there in such large numbers that a recall would turn into an expensive headache. The last issue is GM is close to the 200K mark in US EV sales and crossing that line before they have a platform they can make for less than they sell it for would be a bad move.

It hasn't been substantiated, but estimates are that GM is losing money on each Bolt sold. Unlike Tesla which makes money on each car sold, but loses money overall because of other expenses, GM's conundrum is the opposite. The company makes money, but the Bolt costs them more to make than they can sell it for. They want to sell enough to get a good real world sample for their testing, but they don't want to sell any more than that because it is costing them money.

I do think the loss of the incentive is a Catch 22 for GM. They can't just quit selling EVs and PHEVs, but they want to limit charging ahead too aggressively. Especially when interest from the public is somewhat soft. The only EVs in the US that sell well are Teslas. Many Tesla buyers would not seriously consider another brand of EV. This is especially true of Tesla's customers who are not predominantly eco buyers.

They probably expect to make money on the Bolt on the back end by leveraging the lessons learned from the Bolt on the next gen EV platform. They may make tweaks to the Bolt's platform and keep making it, or they may scrap it altogether depending on what weaknesses are found.

All new engineering projects have bugs. A good testing program will find most of them before production, but there are always some problems that slip through and are only found when real world people are using the product. Every all new car has more problems the first year or two than established cars. It's pretty universal throughout the car industry.

GM is pragmatic to not mass produce EVs yet.

When the electric Buick(s) are available next year we shall see if GM has the cost down. Note that LG were happy to make the parts under GM design so they could have the expertise in-house. i.e. GM gets cheaper battery, LG gets more work/expertise.

I have suspected from the beginning LG made the deal they made with GM so they could learn how to make cars. I would not be surprised if LG was not producing their own EV within a few years. That is if Korea is still there.
 
This thread is about the Bolt EV. Its trend is down from a peak in March 2018. If the inventory is up in CA at the end of this month (June 2018) I would expect some pretty good deals on Bolt EVs so GM can juice their quarterly numbers now that they stopped monthly reporting.
It crazy and telling to me that GM could (or would) only sell and average 3K at the end of last year when there was a) thread of tax credits disappearing, b) lack of Tesla Model 3s.

Aside: Just like they pushed hard to have the first sale in Dec so they could claim they made it and I'm sure for some accounting/tax reasons.

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Above charts via: Chevrolet Bolt Sales Figures -
 
Reason being they made a pledge to deliver Bolts in December 2016....and they stayed true to their word. Duh.

Now don't be so harsh. Just because they told us we could take delivery of our Model 3's in Nov/Dec/Jan and now here it is, another 1/2 year later without even an invite, doesn't mean they didn't keep their word. We did get a tweeterface or something from Tesla implying there will be Magic Tickets in Wonka Bars this June. I'm assuming they meant 2018.
 
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It crazy and telling to me that GM could (or would) only sell and average 3K at the end of last year when there was a) thread of tax credits disappearing, b) lack of Tesla Model 3s.

Aside: Just like they pushed hard to have the first sale in Dec so they could claim they made it and I'm sure for some accounting/tax reasons.

JRMITXz.jpg

vRkGw4p.jpg

Above charts via: Chevrolet Bolt Sales Figures -

It's all about demand. Right now, the highest demand in the EV/Hybrid sector of auto sales is in the >$50,000 area. It's a fashion/luxury purchase. The lower cost Bolt EV which is a great car and an excellent value in a long range EV, isn't expensive enough and lacks wizbang features such as AutoPilot, a system that allows you take your eyes off the road at all times while driving with the marketing-based assumption of safety. The OM says otherwise, but the marketing videos are more fun to watch.

A very common mistake automakers have made throughout time has been to make cars people based on needs instead of wants. The Pontiac Aztek / Buick Rendezvous was a classic example. This is the daddy of Today's 'SUVs' including the Model X. A very useful format. The problem is there was no market for this new kind of SUVs back then. It had a very high Consumer Satisfaction Index, and was probably one of the very few true Sports Utility Vehicles:

"The Aztek was able to carry within its interior a standard 4 feet (1.2 m) by 8 feet (2.4 m) sheet of plywood and was available with two rear cargo area options: a pull-out cargo tray that held up to 400 pounds (180 kg) that rolled on built-in wheels when removed from the vehicle, or a versatile cargo net system that held up to 200 pounds (91 kg) and could be configured (a claimed) 22 different ways. Options included a center console that doubled as a removable cooler and a tent/inflatable mattress package that, along with a built-in air compressor, allowed the Aztek to double as a camper. Extending this image was a seat-back mounted backpack, and a number of specialty racks for bicycles, canoes, snowboards, and other such items. An optional 10 speaker Pioneer stereo system provided a set of controls located at the rear of the vehicle for tail-gate parties as well as an unusual 2-piece tailgate with built-in cup-holders and contoured seating area for added comfort." - Wiki

If you needed seating for 7, IIRC, you had to buy with Buick badging. Strangely the Buick sold well, the Aztek sold poorly. With AWD, this was one of greatest new-age SUVs of all time.

Likewise the Bolt is the EV people need. The Model 3 is the one they want. The Model 3 sells well, the Bolt sells poorly.
 
Now don't be so harsh. Just because they told us we could take delivery of our Model 3's in Nov/Dec/Jan and now here it is, another 1/2 year later without even an invite, doesn't mean they didn't keep their word. We did get a tweeterface or something from Tesla implying there will be Magic Tickets in Wonka Bars this June. I'm assuming they meant 2018.
I waited months for my 1st yr Gen 1 Volt '11 and GM/dealer could not tell me when I was going to get it. Picked it up in another state (NY) as it was not offered in IL for a long time.
I waited weeks for my 1st yr Gen 2 Volt '16 and GM/dealer could not tell me when I was going to get it. Picked it up in another state (MD) as it was not offered in IL for a long time.
 
It's all about demand. Right now, the highest demand in the EV/Hybrid sector of auto sales is in the >$50,000 area. It's a fashion/luxury purchase. The lower cost Bolt EV which is a great car and an excellent value in a long range EV, isn't expensive enough and lacks wizbang features such as AutoPilot, a system that allows you take your eyes off the road at all times while driving with the marketing-based assumption of safety. The OM says otherwise, but the marketing videos are more fun to watch.

A very common mistake automakers have made throughout time has been to make cars people based on needs instead of wants. The Pontiac Aztek / Buick Rendezvous was a classic example. This is the daddy of Today's 'SUVs' including the Model X. A very useful format. The problem is there was no market for this new kind of SUVs back then. It had a very high Consumer Satisfaction Index, and was probably one of the very few true Sports Utility Vehicles:

"The Aztek was able to carry within its interior a standard 4 feet (1.2 m) by 8 feet (2.4 m) sheet of plywood and was available with two rear cargo area options: a pull-out cargo tray that held up to 400 pounds (180 kg) that rolled on built-in wheels when removed from the vehicle, or a versatile cargo net system that held up to 200 pounds (91 kg) and could be configured (a claimed) 22 different ways. Options included a center console that doubled as a removable cooler and a tent/inflatable mattress package that, along with a built-in air compressor, allowed the Aztek to double as a camper. Extending this image was a seat-back mounted backpack, and a number of specialty racks for bicycles, canoes, snowboards, and other such items. An optional 10 speaker Pioneer stereo system provided a set of controls located at the rear of the vehicle for tail-gate parties as well as an unusual 2-piece tailgate with built-in cup-holders and contoured seating area for added comfort." - Wiki

If you needed seating for 7, IIRC, you had to buy with Buick badging. Strangely the Buick sold well, the Aztek sold poorly. With AWD, this was one of greatest new-age SUVs of all time.

Likewise the Bolt is the EV people need. The Model 3 is the one they want. The Model 3 sells well, the Bolt sells poorly.

A humorous review of the Aztek:

I have seen the Bolt criticized as a $20K ICE with an $18K EV drive train. EV systems are still more expensive than ICE. Almost all of that is the price of the batteries. There are a few ways to deal with that problem. Make a no compromise, expensive car like the Model S/X and people will just have to pay for it. Make a compromised range, but nicely appointed with features like the BMW i3, make a cheap looking car with a long range battery pack at the price of a fully loaded family car like the Bolt, or cheap out on the features in a way it can be sold as a feature like the Model 3.

Tesla saved a lot of money with only 1 screen and the very reduced control interior of the Model 3. They also have the cheapest batteries in the world thanks to the GF. The drive system of the Model 3 is still more expensive than an equivalent ICE, but the price difference is less and the somewhat spartan interior of the Model 3 is a feature rather than a drawback. The Bolt's interior has been criticized for looking like an econo-box, but the Model 3 is praised for being futuristic.

Tesla did a better job of making a cheaper interior. Mechanical buttons, displays, etc. all cost money to design, make, and install. Eliminate as many of those as possible and replace them with software controls and the car can look cutting edge instead of cheap.

Smart phones went the same route. Eliminating the physical keyboard saved a fortune in hardware costs, but now a physical keyboard seems archaic.

The Bolt is a decent car. I expect they will hold up fairly well, but with all the cheap plastic, the interior may look pretty worn in a few years. Depending on your needs, the Bolt or the Model 3 might suit your needs better. The Bolt is a hatchback which means getting stuff in and out is probably easier. But the Model 3's seats are more comfortable and I expect the M3 will hold its value better over time. In a few years a used Bolt might be a well kept secret among EV buyers looking for the best bang for the buck.

Doug DeMuro who I linked above also reviewed the M3 and Bolt. He's not an EV guy, but he had good things to say about both. The title of his Bolt review is the "Uncool Electric Car" and he explains why in the video. The badge on the front being one of its drawbacks.