Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[Krugerrand]

But don't exclude the possibility that Mary Barra sees the eventual inevitability of EVs for passenger cars and has realized that GM has to get started now, at least on a small way.

Have you listened to her talk? I mean, really listened? She's old school, raised and brainwashed the old school way and that's why the rush to beat Tesla to market with the Bolt - because she wants the first to market claim to fame and headlines. That's her driving force, not some realization that the world will (and needs to) 'eventually' transition to EVs.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Have you listened to her talk? I mean, really listened? She's old school, raised and brainwashed the old school way and that's why the rush to beat Tesla to market with the Bolt - because she wants the first to market claim to fame and headlines. That's her driving force, not some realization that the world will (and needs to) 'eventually' transition to EVs.

Maybe so, but, does it matter? It's great that a good range EV priced for the masses (relatively speaking) is heading to the market this quickly. I was skeptical about GM's will to go from concept to production but, this turnaround timeframe is nothing short of amazing!

 

[Yggdrasill]

I think it's reassuring that it will be offered in Europe as an Opel. After the Ampera flopped, that shows they are at least fairly confident it will do better than the Ampera.

5000 Ampera were sold in the first year in Europe, so I think that would be a floor for GMs expectations.

 

[mknox]

Maybe so, but, does it matter? It's great that a good range EV priced for the masses (relatively speaking) is heading to the market this quickly.

Yeah, and it actually kind of fits in with Elon's plan. He has always said the goal of Tesla was to spur on adoption of electric vehicles. So how is a little competition and 'trying to be first to market" with an EV even close to a bad thing?

When I talk to people about EVs, it has become clear to me that the biggest thing holding them back is selection. Right now, there are thousands of choices in the ICE marketplace, but you can practically count the electric offerings on one hand (I may be exaggerating a bit). It's not that people are opposed to EVs, but if there is nothing in the current crop that tickles your fancy, you will buy what you like... and that will probably be an ICE. Once more models become available I think we'll see adoption pick up.

It's fine to prefer Tesla (or any other brand, for that matter) over another, but I can't see how diminishing the efforts of others is helpful. Tesla may lead the way, but there is room for all.

 

[tftf]

Make no mistake, we are not all on the same side. Tftf wants Tesla to fail, period, and has invested accordingly. Thus everything he posts is twisted by this, because his vision is equally twisted. That's why he can claim things like "the forum goes silent" when that is completely, obviously false. I have no problem with tftf posting whatever he wants here because he's not going to fool anyone in this crowd, but always remember he is the enemy, just like Petersen, Santos, Wahlman, etc.

I can't stop laughing. So every post by a TSLA long on this forum (and there are many with major long positions) or by a permabull analyst with major conflict of interest employed by his/her investment bank on Wall Street is completely unbiased and neutral?

But let's warn readers of the "enemies" (still waiting for my huge cheque from the Koch brothers) with short positions and their "twisted" opinions.

PS: Perhaps you also forgot that I was once long TSLA when the stock was trading in the $20-30 range and there was some hope that Musk would install a 100% CEO (or at least install a COO keeping deadlines etc) at Tesla with execution abilities and offload Model3 manufacturing to former partners (Daimler/Toyota).

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I believe the Chevy Bolt is vaporware. Do you know how many manufacturers are saying "me, too!" in electrics? Every one of them! How many actually produce a viable EV? Few! With the exception of Tesla, how many manufacturers would continue to make EVs if the compliance part was not present? None of them!

Carlos Ghosn would like to have his billions back then (the roughly $5billion Nissan-Renault invested into EVs by 2014, the number is certainly higher now). Do you know how many EVs the R-N alliance shipped so far?

No. 1 in global EV sales: 284,000 units (SoS-end Oct)

Renault-Nissan provides worlds largest EV fleet to international conference at COP21 | Blog of RENAULT NISSAN Alliance

 

[Discoducky]

What are we defining as constitutes a hit? They aren't planning on making enough of them, imo, to determine if they are a hit or not. By the time they can make enough, as I've mentioned a few times before, there's very few logical reasons for anyone to purchase a Bolt over a Model 3... the value proposition is so lopsided that only a brain fart, unrealistic, makes-no-logical- sense reason, or 'I need a car yesterday and there are no used Model 3's/floor models today that allow me an immediate purchase, would have someone purchase a Bolt over a Model 3 - because to date we are expecting only two features to be similar; range and pricing (though Model 3 is expected to have a lower base price and I'll believe the Bolt range when it actually happens in the real world with real drivers). All the rest of the vehicle features have the Model 3 ahead by a landslide; charging network, safety (yes, I expect Elon to insist on 5* rating across the board and in every sub-category), OTA updates, cargo space, business model (shopping, buying, customer service), looks (yes, I'm pretty sure the Model 3 isn't going to look like a rectangular box on wheels), etc...

And I'm not even sure that GM can produce the Bolt at any significant profit, at least and until they are producing 100,000s per year. I actually am expecting them to lose money on every Bolt initially. So, even if the Bolt sells out their first year of production in a week...will that handful of cars convince her that GM can make money on them? Uh....not holding my breath. Happy to be wrong.

Yeah, hit should be defined, but a little bit more context. I'd start by saying that GM is betting on EV's with the Bolt and when it ships will be sold at a loss. I do however think the bet could be minimal in that GM could launch in just a few states and slow Europe ramp while adopting a 'wait and see' while continuing R&D spend for a year (it is actually looking like this currently but we'll see at CES what they announce).

To define hit for GM I'd say it would need to be a "best of CES 2016", get very positive reviews from tech journalists with test drives (not rides). 1st milestone.

Have you listened to her talk? I mean, really listened? She's old school, raised and brainwashed the old school way and that's why the rush to beat Tesla to market with the Bolt - because she wants the first to market claim to fame and headlines. That's her driving force, not some realization that the world will (and needs to) 'eventually' transition to EVs.

I have to believe something is driving her to EV's and I think it is her EE (Electrical Engineering) degree and time at Stanford. This must be playing some part in this push. Everything else seems to put her into 'old school GM'.

I can't stop laughing. So every post by a TSLA long on this forum (and there are many with major long positions) or by a permabull analyst with major conflict of interest employed by his/her investment bank on Wall Street is completely unbiased and neutral?

But let's warn readers of the "enemies" (still waiting for my huge cheque from the Koch brothers) with short positions and their "twisted" opinions.

PS: Perhaps you also forgot that I was long TSLA when it was trading in the $20-30 range and there was hope that Musk would install a 100% CEO (or at least a COO keeping deadlines) at Tesla with execution abilities and offload Model3 manufacturing to former partners (Daimler/Toyota).

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Carlos Ghosn would like to have his billions back then (the roughly $5billion Nissan-Renault invested into EVs by 2014, the number is certainly higher now). Do you know how many EVs the R-N alliance shipped so far?



Renault-Nissan provides worlds largest EV fleet to international conference at COP21 | Blog of RENAULT NISSAN Alliance

Inflammatory, circular and not engaging. Please try to keep the conversation moving forward.

 

[tftf]

That's why he can claim things like "the forum goes silent" when that is completely, obviously false.

No, it's not false.

I posted news of Hyundai (that was already rumored back in September-October, but I awaited the official PR) launching a mid-size BEV with "next-gen" (so we can assume 150-200 miles of range) LG Chem batteries in January 2016.

If that is not major news in the world of affordable, longer-range EVs, I don't know what is.

How many responses are there to this post / link? Exactly zero as I type this...

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (thread)

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (post)

 

[gregincal]

The Bolt appears to be a sub-compact hatch, about Honda Fit sized.

Um, no it isn't. It's a subcompact SUV like the Chevy Trax. The Trax is a full foot longer than the Honda Fit.

(Also, the Fit sells for about 17-22K, the Trax for about 20-27K.)

 

[Yggdrasill]

No, it's not false.

I posted news of Hyundai (that was already rumored back in September-October, but I awaited the official PR) launching a mid-size BEV with "next-gen" (so we can assume 150-200 miles of range) LG Chem batteries in January 2016.

If that is not major news in the world of affordable, longer-range EVs, I don't know what is.

How many responses are there to this post / link? Exactly zero as I type this...

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (thread)

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (post)

Next gen batteries says nothing about range. It only says something about energy density and cost. Earlier today I tried finding out if Hyundai actually had any plans to launch a compelling BEV, but I was unable to find any evidence of that. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, right now nothing is known. Until there's any real data, I don't think there will be much buzz about the Hyundai model.

Also, I read the press release. The big thing they were talking about was that this is the first model offered as both a hybrid, plug-in hybrid and BEV. How is that in any way impressive? The VW Golf is offered as a plug-in hybrid and BEV (and diesel/gasoline), so what they're actually bragging about is offering a traditional hybrid. Wow...

As a rule, a purpose-built BEV will be better than a BEV built on a ICE/hybrid platform, so that means the Hyundai likely won't be impressive.

 

[dsm363]

No, it's not false.

I posted news of Hyundai (that was already rumored back in September-October, but I awaited the official PR) launching a mid-size BEV with "next-gen" (so we can assume 150-200 miles of range) LG Chem batteries in January 2016.

If that is not major news in the world of affordable, longer-range EVs, I don't know what is.

How many responses are there to this post / link? Exactly zero as I type this...

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (thread)

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (post)

So you're upset people didn't reply to you within 24 hours?

 

[tftf]

So you're upset people didn't reply to you within 24 hours?

I don't care about replies because I posted the links. I'm simply amazed that there was no reaction to this news, especially since January 2016 is just a month away.

For years, almost everybody following/interested in EVs has been complaining that there's no affordable (let's define this as $40-50k or lower) and longer-range (let's define this as 150-200 miles of range in the real world) EV.

Now Hyundai is on the verge of launching such a car (maybe even beating the GM Bolt to market, we don't know...details forthcoming) and there's no reaction in this forum.

On top of that the teaser presented appears to show a rather "normal" design (therefore no complaints that this will be another "weird-looking" car like the i3 or Leaf that will turn off some mass-market buyers).

Does the car have the wrong badge?

Can't some Tesla diehards accept that another (if we count the GM Bolt as the first entry) major car brand is likely beating the Model3 to market?

 

[Yggdrasill]

I don't care about replies because I posted the links. I'm simply amazed that there was no reaction to this news, especially since January 2016 is just a month away.

For years, almost everybody following/interested in EVs has been complaining that there's no affordable (let's define this as $40-50k or lower) or longer-range (let's define this as 150-200 miles of range in the real world) EV.

Now Hyundai is on the verge of launching such a car (maybe even beating the GM Bolt to market, we don't know...details forthcoming) and there's no reaction.

Does the car have the wrong badge?

Not for me, at least. I love the Kia Soul, which is made by the same corporation. And I drive a Hyundai.

Can't some Tesla diehards accept that another (if we count the GM Bolt as the first entry) major car brand is likely beating the Model3 to market?

What it comes down to: There's no evidence to support that viewpoint.

 

[Johan]

Details indeed are forthcoming on both the Bolt and the BEV version of the new Huyndai.

I'm looking at the title of this thread. "200 mile range" and "$30k base price (after incentive)" which I take to mean $37500 base price. Can we at least agree that until the Bolt is unveiled the jury's still out on those metrics?

 

[stopcrazypp]

No, it's not false.

I posted news of Hyundai (that was already rumored back in September-October, but I awaited the official PR) launching a mid-size BEV with "next-gen" (so we can assume 150-200 miles of range) LG Chem batteries in January 2016.

If that is not major news in the world of affordable, longer-range EVs, I don't know what is.

How many responses are there to this post / link? Exactly zero as I type this...

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (thread)

Hyundai to Launch 2016 Midsize BEV Powered By Next-Gen LG Chem Batteries (post)

How many people even saw that post (I certainly didn't) or thought the news was important? The Bolt was a big hit in the media when it launched and GM said in no uncertain terms it would have 200 miles of range, even before launch of the concept. Here Hyundai didn't even launch yet and has no indication that it won't be another compliance car (another shared platform car is certainly not big news, just like Honda's similar announcement).

As for response to the Hyundai news specifically, people already gave it to posts cross posted here and in the the BEV competition thread.

As for the whole point, you got caught, just admit it and move on. Keep in mind the default mode here is to lean positive for Tesla, given this is a Tesla enthusiast forum. I don't get why you expect a "neutral" view here.

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Have you listened to her talk? I mean, really listened? She's old school, raised and brainwashed the old school way and that's why the rush to beat Tesla to market with the Bolt - because she wants the first to market claim to fame and headlines. That's her driving force, not some realization that the world will (and needs to) 'eventually' transition to EVs.

I agree GM wants the headlines, but I think they will easily sell the Leaf level volumes they are planning. It won't change the product direction of GM completely (or even very much), but it's a good first step. I do hope however they do something major for the CCS charging network and don't repeat the mistakes made here designing the CHAdeMO network (which still is not road trip viable despite more than 1000 chargers).

 

[JRP3]

No, it's not false.

I posted news of Hyundai (that was already rumored back in September-October, but I awaited the official PR) launching a mid-size BEV with "next-gen" (so we can assume 150-200 miles of range) LG Chem batteries in January 2016.

If that is not major news in the world of affordable, longer-range EVs, I don't know what is.

How many responses are there to this post / link? Exactly zero as I type this...

It's been discussed previously, it's not shocking news, it's being discussed now in other threads, and with no details at all there is very little to actually discuss. But, as usual, you miss the main point, other EV's are not automatically competition to Tesla just because they are EV's, and even if they are "competition" the market is large enough that it just doesn't matter. BMW and Audi coexist, along with all other OEM's.

 

[dsm363]

I didn't even see the Hyundi thread for what it's worth. For a car launching in a month that is apparently game changing it didn't generate much press.

 

[scaesare]

No, it's not false.

I posted news of Hyundai .... Exactly zero as I type this...

Hence the danger of cherry picking specific examples and attempting to state them as absolutes.

Clearly it would be wrong for one to state "The forum goes nuts whenever a new BEV is announced", as your Hyundai post is one example demonstrating otherwise.

In like manner, you are clearly wrong asserting "The forum goes quiet when new BEV's are discussed", as the Chevy Bolt thread(s) clearly demonstrate otherwise.

That's the thing about facts... attempting to pick and choose them to bolster your point in all actuality undermines you once it's demonstrated you aren't being objective.

 

[JRP3]

I can't stop laughing. So every post by a TSLA long on this forum (and there are many with major long positions) or by a permabull analyst with major conflict of interest employed by his/her investment bank on Wall Street is completely unbiased and neutral?

In fact we point out how over the top some analysts are, such as "Acid" Trip Chowdhry and many of us try to talk down some of the more over exuberant posters here. As usual you try to twist reality and deceive, and by relying on such tactics you continue to prove the weakness of your position.

 

[qwk]

I don't care about replies because I posted the links. I'm simply amazed that there was no reaction to this news, especially since January 2016 is just a month away.

For years, almost everybody following/interested in EVs has been complaining that there's no affordable (let's define this as $40-50k or lower) and longer-range (let's define this as 150-200 miles of range in the real world) EV.

Now Hyundai is on the verge of launching such a car (maybe even beating the GM Bolt to market, we don't know...details forthcoming) and there's no reaction in this forum.

On top of that the teaser presented appears to show a rather "normal" design (therefore no complaints that this will be another "weird-looking" car like the i3 or Leaf that will turn off some mass-market buyers).

Does the car have the wrong badge?

Can't some Tesla diehards accept that another (if we count the GM Bolt as the first entry) major car brand is likely beating the Model3 to market?

It's very obvious that you bring emotion and bias into your investing. That is a sure way to lose money. Having said that, nothing you post makes any sense. Tesla is definately not perfect, but they understand one thing-make their cars look pretty decent=demand. This is a very basic concept that NO ONE else has implemented. Why? They don't want to cannibalize sales of their other product. How in the world do you think that some of these companies can drive all of this demand? Luck? Chance? Unless this changes, EV's from current manufacturers have little hope beyond compliance numbers.

 

[flankspeed8]

Make no mistake, we are not all on the same side. Tftf wants Tesla to fail, period, and has invested accordingly.

I would disagree with this premise. Although I have never shorted a stock, I don't think that there is a correlation to selling short and hoping that a company will fail. Often in the market valuations get out of hand or there is just a little to much optimism around short term fundamentals. Shorting would imply that they think a pull back is coming and they will profit from it. There was a time when EM even said that TSLA stock was too rich. From my limited experience, shorting is a bonafide way of making money even in a decline which would be impossible if you were strictly long.

Steve Job's was accused of having a reality distortion field around him..Sometime I think these boards operate the same way in that healthy criticism must be attacked and the poster destroyed. Not healthy in the long run.

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And I'm not even sure that GM can produce the Bolt at any significant profit, at least and until they are producing 100,000s per year. I actually am expecting them to lose money on every Bolt initially. So, even if the Bolt sells out their first year of production in a week...will that handful of cars convince her that GM can make money on them? Uh....not holding my breath. Happy to be wrong.

Well in the CARB states I am sure those credits will add to over all profitability. A lot of the R&D has come from the Volt which according to them the Gen 2 is profitable. Why is it so hard to think that they can't build a mid-range electric at a profit, while TSLA can?