Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[robby]

Doubtful. 90 miles in 30 min sure sounds slower than 90 kW.

Napkin math gives me 48.6 kW

90 miles in 30 minutes
200 miles on 60 kWh
200 miles on 54 kWh usable => 270 Wh/mi
90 miles * 0.270 kWh/mi = 24.3 kWh
24.3 kWh per 30 minutes = 48.6 kWh/hr = 48.6 kW

 

[walla2]

As for Volt, your points are pretty far off - and that is the history that I can make comparisons from.

1. Volt is 5 star, very close to Model S at 5.4 star
2. Volt exceeds rated range regularly
3. Dealers hate Volt. That's OK, I don't like dealers
4. Volt just had it's first recall - due to a few owners being idiots and making the car more idiot proof. Tesla has a seat belt recall. I call it a push.
5. After being crashed and stored upside down for 3 weeks, it caught fire. Volt has I believe 1 fire in operation. Tesla has 3 plus 1 at a supercharger to my knowledge.
6. No it won't. It will suck for long trips. Maybe a regional out-and-back of less than 170 miles might be OK if you can charge at your destination before returning.
7. This car is production ready. It was near production ready a year ago. Very little chance of GM not sticking to their dates.

Good responses but:
1. This is a compact class car. Less crumple. Totally different design. Small offset the Bolt or Volt.
2. Volt uses differnt batteries and tech. This is a new car. Can't make assumptions.
3. Dealers service your car. This is critical when a problem arises. Tesla service far exceeds any dealer experience I have had and is important for the long term.
4. Seat belt recall was for one belt. Not the same. GM has large recalls in the millions on other vehicles some handled quite poorly.
5. Fires occur. How did GM handle the risk since the skateboard design was copied?
6. It will suck for medium or long trips, not just long ones. And likely vampire will kill it at the airport.
7. The ces cars were not production under the hood = not production.

 

[Drucifer]

Good responses but:
1. This is a compact class car. Less crumple. Totally different design. Small offset the Bolt or Volt.
2. Volt uses different batteries and tech. This is a new car. Can't make assumptions.
3. Dealers service your car. This is critical when a problem arises. Tesla service far exceeds any dealer experience I have had and is important for the long term.
4. Seat belt recall was for one belt. Not the same. GM has large recalls in the millions on other vehicles some handled quite poorly.
5. Fires occur. How did GM handle the risk since the skateboard design was copied?
6. It will suck for medium or long trips, not just long ones. And likely vampire will kill it at the airport.
7. The ces cars were not production under the hood = not production.

2. This battery tech is the Volt tech with cells in landscape instead of portrait arrangement.
4. Millions of other vehicles are not the Volt or Bolt. I could give a crap less if the Impala or Camaro get recalled.
5. Good question. The Volt battery was raised up from the roadbed and protected by the frame and a bit of elevation.
6. Vampire drain is more of a Tesla issue as well. I can park the Volt for days and come back to the same SOC as I left it (or very close).
7. Still much closer to production than Model III, which needs the gigafactory up and running to support it.

I get that a lot of people want to hate GM cars because......GM. I like to judge the hardware on it's own merit separate from the politics of the company that makes the hardware.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Applauding GM here for getting so close to launching the first 150+-mile, affordable (non-Tesla at this point) EV.

Given Tesla's brand halo (and maybe the Supercharger network for some consumers), the Model 3 will do very well but, it's always great to have choices.

I know the Gigafactory was a necessary stepping stone for Tesla to get to the Model 3 but, I wonder sometimes if the (oft-delayed, extremely-complex) X was a "mistake" and if Musk & Co. should have jumped headfirst into the mass market EV race after the initial success of the Model S, say, circa late-2013.

 

[Adm]

I don't know if it was mentioned before, but fast charging will be optional on the Bolt. I wonder how much they will charge for that option.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/silveradohd/2013.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/Jan/naias/chevy/0111-bolt-du.html

 

[JRP3]

I think you are not appreciating how conservative that GM has been with their other battery cars. Certainly other manufacturers like pushing the limits more than GM has. I think GM is going for longevity and reducing capacity loss.

If you're talking about small battery pack hybrids such as the Volt you can't compare cycling depths to EV's. Hybrid packs have to reserve more of their capacity because the smaller packs mean they will be more often fully discharged, possibly multiple times a day. The larger the pack the less likely it's going to be deeply discharged, which means you can allow greater SOC range to be available. I expect the Bolt will allow a greater SOC range from it's pack than the Volt.

 

[scottf200]

If you're talking about small battery pack hybrids such as the Volt you can't compare cycling depths to EV's. Hybrid packs have to reserve more of their capacity because the smaller packs mean they will be more often fully discharged, possibly multiple times a day. The larger the pack the less likely it's going to be deeply discharged, which means you can allow greater SOC range to be available. I expect the Bolt will allow a greater SOC range from it's pack than the Volt.

Reasonable point. Remember that they only charge up to 87% on the other end tho.

Generally
the Gen I Volts use the area of ~22% to ~87% of the battery (65%)
the Gen II Volts use the area of ~18% to ~87% of the battery (69%)

 

[JRP3]

Right, I expect them to use more of the bottom and the top with the Bolt.

 

[ebwb]

The debate between Chevy BEV and Tesla BEV today is all about size. Do you prefer an economy sized vehicle that feels like a compact car rental or a luxury vehicle with lots of power, comfort and size?

Until Model III is revealed, there is no debate on the vehicle I want to drive. If the Chevrolet Volt felt small to me, then the Bolt won't satisfy. We delight in driving the finest electric vehicles manufactured in the world today with the Tesla Motors' Model S and Model X.

I am enjoying the ride.

Bolt vs Model S interior dimensions


Headroom, front: 39.7" vs 38.8"
Headroom, rear: 37.9" vs 35.3"
Shoulder room, front: 54.6" vs 57.7"
Shoulder room, rear: 52.8" vs 55.0"
Hip room, front: 51.6" vs 55"
Hip room, rear: 50.8" vs 54.7"
Legroom, front: 41.6" vs 42.7"
Legroom, rear: 36.5" vs 35.4"
Cargo volume behind rear seats: 16.9 cu ft. vs. 26.3 cu ft.


Bolt has more headroom. Model S has more shoulder and hip room. Model S beats Bolt in front legroom by 1.1", while Bolt beats Model S in rear legroom by the same amount. Model S has more cargo volume. With four people, Bolt seems to be the more spacious vehicle. Model S has the least rear headroom of any four-door; I'm 5'10" and literally cannot fit in the back of a Model S sans pano without slouching. Pano roof helps because I can stick my head to the side, but that doesn't seem very safe in a rollover.

I hope Model 3 is a taller, more traditional sedan (hatchback opening is fine) with actual footwells for the rear seats. The Porsche EV concept has cutouts for passengers' feet in the skateboard battery, which seems like an interesting solution.

 

[JRP3]

I hope Model 3 is a taller, more traditional sedan (hatchback opening is fine)

I hope not because I don't care about the back seat as long as it has one, and I'm hoping for sleek styling and the best aero possible.

with actual footwells for the rear seats. The Porsche EV concept has cutouts for passengers' feet in the skateboard battery, which seems like an interesting solution.

I agree with that, though I don't know if cell density is yet high enough to do that in a smaller vehicle such as the Model 3.

 

[electracity]

I hope Model 3 is a taller, more traditional sedan (hatchback opening is fine) with actual footwells for the rear seats. The Porsche EV concept has cutouts for passengers' feet in the skateboard battery, which seems like an interesting solution.

If the Cd is as low as predicted, The M3 will be the opposite of what you hope. Musk said "it won't look like any other car". That means more EV1 that traditional sedan, if he wasn't just messing with potential competitors with this statement on design.

If Tesla can't afford a 60kwh battery in the M3, the design is likely to go very aerodynamic and sporty. The opposite of the Bolt. Look at the size of the Roadster.

 

[flathillll]

If the Cd is as low as predicted, The M3 will be the opposite of what you hope. Musk said "it won't look like any other car". That means more EV1 that traditional sedan, if he wasn't just messing with potential competitors with this statement on design.

If Tesla can't afford a 60kwh battery in the M3, the design is likely to go very aerodynamic and sporty. The opposite of the Bolt. Look at the size of the Roadster.

it means its going to look cooler than any other car. super functional and aerodynamic. think hatchback

a 60kwh battery will only cost $3000 (cell cost only). the pack architecture is also way cheaper now

cold plate cooling (thanks to putting both terminals on one side of the can like SAFT), flex PCB battery bus (replaces all bus bar, BMS wiring, and cell fuse functionality, and allows them to shave a hundred pounds in adhesive (current pack requires near zero cell movement or fuse bond wire will break)

the ends of a 18650 can cell have 12X thermal conductivity than the sides, so just one end will do. this 12X ratio increases with the fatter gigafactory cell designed to be cooled on ONE end (so 6X with 18650 compared to full side jacket). no more complicated wavy Al tubes hand covered in Kapton cooling sides of cell can means cheaper and you can pack the cells much tighter. even now the wavy tubes don't make fully contact on the cell sides so the advantage of end cooling even larger than in theory

also remember....

take two identical cells

roll one in a can and make the other prismatic. compress the prismatic pack properly (high cost silicone foam), the can cell will last twice as long simply due to swelling (can constrained spiral better suited to distribute force)

the tesla pack is going to last 20 years+

the Chevy pack is designed planned obsolescence

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[igotzzoom]

If I'm not mistaken, I remember Musk saying the Model 3 would be "really useful"? That would indicate to me a hatch/wagon configuration of some sort.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Bolt vs Model S interior dimensions


Headroom, front: 39.7" vs 38.8"
Headroom, rear: 37.9" vs 35.3"
Shoulder room, front: 54.6" vs 57.7"
Shoulder room, rear: 52.8" vs 55.0"
Hip room, front: 51.6" vs 55"
Hip room, rear: 50.8" vs 54.7"
Legroom, front: 41.6" vs 42.7"
Legroom, rear: 36.5" vs 35.4"
Cargo volume behind rear seats: 16.9 cu ft. vs. 26.3 cu ft.


Bolt has more headroom. Model S has more shoulder and hip room. Model S beats Bolt in front legroom by 1.1", while Bolt beats Model S in rear legroom by the same amount. Model S has more cargo volume. With four people, Bolt seems to be the more spacious vehicle. Model S has the least rear headroom of any four-door; I'm 5'10" and literally cannot fit in the back of a Model S sans pano without slouching. Pano roof helps because I can stick my head to the side, but that doesn't seem very safe in a rollover.

I hope Model 3 is a taller, more traditional sedan (hatchback opening is fine) with actual footwells for the rear seats. The Porsche EV concept has cutouts for passengers' feet in the skateboard battery, which seems like an interesting solution.

This should come as no surprise.

Model S was designed to be a low to the ground sport sedan. GM promotes the Bolt as a mini-CUV.

 

[tftf]

a 60kwh battery will only cost $3000 (cell cost only)

Links or sources please for this cost estimate?

The mere material cost inputs are probably higher than that, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[wws]

I don't know if it was mentioned before, but fast charging will be optional on the Bolt. I wonder how much they will charge for that option.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/che.../us/en/2016/Jan/naias/chevy/0111-bolt-du.html

On the Spark EV, the CCS port is a $750 option. One would hope that the Bolt option would be comparably priced (or, of course, less).

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I know the Gigafactory was a necessary stepping stone for Tesla to get to the Model 3 but, I wonder sometimes if the (oft-delayed, extremely-complex) X was a "mistake" and if Musk & Co. should have jumped headfirst into the mass market EV race after the initial success of the Model S, say, circa late-2013.

I've wondered the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

But how can it be mass market if it's not mass produced?

Or simply not available to the masses: New York Times: A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

 

[JRP3]

Links or sources please for this cost estimate?

The mere material cost inputs are probably higher than that, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Actually have to agree with tftf on this one, $3K cell cost for a 60kWh pack means $50/kWh. Not a chance, not even in Elon's most ambitious projections of $80/kWh materials cost.

 

[Ryan H]

Wasn't LG already quoted saying $145/kWh?

 

[stopcrazypp]

What is your source for the LEAF pack putting out up to 200 kW? The LEAF only has an 80 kW motor.

I just googled it. The Leaf pack was tested at 201kW peak power at 80% DOD by the DOE (see page 3 below):
http://media3.ev-tv.me/DOEleaftest.pdf

The Bolt power output is probably limited by cost controls -- bigger motor and inverter costs more. As for recharging rate, I will not be surprised if GM eventually discloses support for "DC Level 2" 200A 90 kW charging equipment. Perhaps they are holding this detail back until a later announcement about charging infrastructure for long-distance traveling.

Perhaps the quoted power output of the Bolt pack is not the real limit, as you suggest. However, the DC charging speeds have consistently been quoted suggesting 50kW. Both the 90 miles in 30 minutes and 80% in 1 hour suggest 50kW charging.