Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[scottf200]

<snip>
It is quoted at 160kW peak power from a 60kWh pack. 2.67C discharge rate which isn't impressive. The S60 is ~240kW (4C) and NCA isn't an energy dense chemistry in the first place (the Leaf pack can do 200kW from 24kWh or 8.33C).

I'm worried what this will mean for charge rate limits. The quoted 90 miles of EPA range on a 30 minute charge implies 50kW charging limit, which means an under 1C charge limit. I would hope this is not chemistry limited or this would have implications down the line for some of the other promised vehicles (like the Porsche Mission E).

I think you are not appreciating how conservative that GM has been with their other battery cars. Certainly other manufacturers like pushing the limits more than GM has. I think GM is going for longevity and reducing capacity loss.

My 2011 Volt (3y11mo) has not appeared to lose any battery capacity but we know that it has to have.

Generally
the Gen I Volts use the area of ~22% to ~87% of the battery (65%)
the Gen II Volts use the area of ~18% to ~87% of the battery (69%)

 

[1208]

As I put in another thread, if it's economic class, the Leaf beat GM a long time ago to the first mass-market EV.

Agreed! Especially where the UK is concerned.

 

[S'toon]

As I put in another thread, if it's economic class, the Leaf beat GM a long time ago to the first mass-market EV.

I don't have a problem with that assertion. They've sold a heck of a lot of Leafs outside the US as well, it must be remembered.

 

[Breezy]

It sounds like GM wrote this article but gives a lot of background.

It's interesting to see how the development process unfolded. Most interesting to me is that the failure of Envia required them to regroup.

 

[fluxemag]

I think the Bolt is a good effort. Tough time to come out with an all electric given gas prices, and the public's unwillingness to realize they don't actually take road trips.

The Chevy dealership is a cold, dark place for an EV... How can we get you into this Silverado HD? It's 1950's technology for drive-train and body, but it has leather!

 

[Grendal]

The Chevy Bolt is a clear win for Tesla. They are pushing the major manufacturers to build EVs and electrify. As to whether the Bolt is any competition for the Model 3? Not really. Tesla might lose a few sales to people that are too impatient. Those very same people will likely get the Model 3 as their next car after the Bolt's lease is up.

 

[Carl Leermakers]

I like that it looks good. It doesn't have the "butt ugly veto" problem like Prius, et al, which would cause me never to ever buy it regardless of all other variables. It's icing on the cake that in addition to not being ugly it is actually good looking!

Perhaps, for the first time, an ICE manufacturer is actually serious about making an EV that sells! Quite obvious that all previous efforts were just a matter of "green imaging", while actually implying: "never buy an EV, look at what those things look like, they're just for wierdos and we really prefer you wouldn't buy one of ours".

So perhaps this time GM is serious. Is that a bad thing for Tesla? I think not: Ev's account for less than 1% of global automobile sales, if I'm not mistaken (and Tesla holds half of that market, in the countries wherein it sells best); as long as that is true, you first have to convince 99% of car buyers that an EV is a good option. IF GM does this seriously, it may convince people that EV's are real-world cars (and not meant only for for marginal flower-power techno-nerds, which must be a very small segment of the population). People evaluating the Bolt as a possible solution are also going to look around; so even without the Tesla M3, some of them are going to understand what Tesla (and its Superchargers) is all about. I am tired about all colleagues and clients "admiring" my car but never buying a Tesla themselves; some have openly said that an EV doesn't correspond to their 'image', and a lot of others think the range must be so limited you cannot get to your work and back without recharging. If GM helps put these 20th-century ideas six feet under, that must be good news for Tesla. If the market evolves by 2000%, because one of the three biggest car makers in the world really commits to it (and for sure then the other two will follow), and even if Tesla only gets 5% of that increase, that's still a great leap forward for Tesla. And Tesla could actually do much better than that 5%.

 

[qwk]

This is way premature. Nobody has beat anybody to anything yet. The Bolt isn't available for sale yet, and they have to actually sell a lot of cars to be mass market.

- - - Updated - - -

I think it will sell like the Leaf in my opinion. May be slightly more because of the current Leaf owners might be switching to the Bolt.

Probably less than the Leaf, because Americans are into gas guzzlers again. Gasoline prices are back to the levels they were 15 years ago.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think you are not appreciating how conservative that GM has been with their other battery cars. Certainly other manufacturers like pushing the limits more than GM has. I think GM is going for longevity and reducing capacity loss.

So far there had been little to no correlation shown between fast charging and degradation for both the Leaf and the Model S battery chemistries. I don't think keeping a 1C limit will really do anything to help degradation. The Kia Soul EV uses NMC (although from SK Innovation not LG Chem) and they are doing 100kW charging on a 27 kWh pack. The Bolt's chemistry is likely more energy optimized, but I think they went too far if they can only allow 1C charging. The S60 can do 105kW (1.75C).

 

[Jeff N]

The other big difference is that the Model 3 has to use the Tesla Supercharger network and will be designed accordingly. The Bolt does not and crippled L2 DC charging is an extra cost option.

We don't know yet if the Bolt will take advantage of CCS "DC Level 2" which is 200A and is thus equivalent to Tesla's original supercharging 90 kW rate.

 

[Jeff N]

It is quoted at 160kW peak power from a 60kWh pack. 2.67C discharge rate which isn't impressive. The S60 is ~240kW (4C) and NCA isn't an power dense chemistry in the first place (the Leaf pack can do 200kW from 24kWh or 8.33C).

I'm worried what this will mean for charge rate limits. The quoted 90 miles of EPA range on a 30 minute charge implies 50kW charging limit, which means an under 1C charge limit. I would hope this is not chemistry limited or this would have implications down the line for some of the other promised vehicles (like the Porsche Mission E).

What is your source for the LEAF pack putting out up to 200 kW? The LEAF only has an 80 kW motor.

The Bolt power output is probably limited by cost controls -- bigger motor and inverter costs more. As for recharging rate, I will not be surprised if GM eventually discloses support for "DC Level 2" 200A 90 kW charging equipment. Perhaps they are holding this detail back until a later announcement about charging infrastructure for long-distance traveling.

 

[TexasEV]

How do they define "true mass-market"? If it's based on a lower price than the Model S, the Leaf should have that distinction. If it's based on number of cars sold, the Model S already outsells the anticipated annual production of the Bolt.

 

[vdiv]

You do realize that $30,000 is significantly less than $50,000, don't you? A person who can't afford a $50,000 car could possibly afford a $30,000 car.

Sure, if one qualifies for the tax credits and gets the cheapest Bolt EV with no DCFC capability (CCS apparently will be optional). However if we are looking at $35K vs $45K for the CPO MS by the time the Bolt EV comes out it is not a clear cut case that GM "beats" Tesla.

 

[electracity]

I think you are not appreciating how conservative that GM has been with their other battery cars. Certainly other manufacturers like pushing the limits more than GM has. I think GM is going for longevity and reducing capacity loss.

Exactly. An existing auto maker is going to be conservative in design relative to Tesla. This conservatism will be more of a problem for the Germans matching Tesla on the high end. Tesla may always be quicker, which seems to me to be a problem for Porsche and BMW.

What GM can do with ease is take the financial hit and use a 60kwh battery. Can Tesla build a profitable M3 with a 60kwh battery? I'm doubtful they can do it before the end of the decade. With Tesla's massive powerwall demand, and theoretical 2017 M3 battery demand, where is the gigafactory construction? Tesla is not acting like a company that is backing its claim of producing lowest cost batteries.

I think after the m3 reveal Tesla will raise more capital. But the Bolt will likely be in true production before the footings are finished on a gigafactory extension.

I don't believe this bodes doom and gloom for Tesla. But current gigafactory development does not seem to support Tesla's battery domination claim. GM's and other big manufacturers ability to write the check without concern for a 60 kwh battery may be superior to Tesla's position this decade.

Tesla can probably start to produce the M3 in lower numbers and hide battery costs as capital expenditures. But it seems healthier to build an M3 with an average selling price of $50-60K.

GM certainly has a sporty car designed for the Bolt skateboard. Nissan certainly has a sporty non-weirdmobile EV design.

- - - Updated - - -

The Bolt power output is probably limited by cost controls -- bigger motor and inverter costs more. As for recharging rate, I will not be surprised if GM eventually discloses support for "DC Level 2" 200A 90 kW charging equipment. Perhaps they are holding this detail back until a later announcement about charging infrastructure for long-distance traveling.

The Germans luxury brands simply can't go head to head with Tesla without high voltage DC charging. GM should be able to partner here. Tesla should have an advantage for a number of years, however. I'm sure they are all working on a way to exclude Tesla from this charging network. I'm sure Tesla is looking at how they can make their future cars as charger flexible as possible.

That said, I'm sure GM has also considered buying into Tesla's network. The German's probably can't partner with Tesla, but almost no one wants a $80,000 Cadillac EV. There is no realistic scenario where Tesla dominates a large mainstream EV market with $40K vehicles. There is a realistic scenario where Tesla becomes the dominate luxury car brand.

 

[Xpress]

Model 3 will have 'access' to the SC network. It certainly won't be free like the Model S.

 

[Mark Z]

The debate between Chevy BEV and Tesla BEV today is all about size. Do you prefer an economy sized vehicle that feels like a compact car rental or a luxury vehicle with lots of power, comfort and size?

Until Model III is revealed, there is no debate on the vehicle I want to drive. If the Chevrolet Volt felt small to me, then the Bolt won't satisfy. We delight in driving the finest electric vehicles manufactured in the world today with the Tesla Motors' Model S and Model X.

I am enjoying the ride.

 

[Breezy]

Still skeptical it will get the full 200 mile range.

It will. You guys should let this go, and move on to saying "I'm sure it won't have as long a range as the Model 3" or something to that effect.

 

[mknox]

The Bolt never would have happened without Tesla. Heck, the Volt wouldn't have happened without Tesla.

The Chevy Bolt is a clear win for Tesla. They are pushing the major manufacturers to build EVs and electrify.

Exactly! Tesla has all along said they want to spur the market on to electric vehicles. I see this as only a good thing and find all the Volt/Bolt bashing somewhat surprising.

Umm...you do realize the base price of the Model 3 is expected to be lower than that of the Bolt, right? And that the tech in the Model 3 (and it's design) will be far superior.

How do you know that? We've seen the Bolt, it's tech and specs (pending EPA on range) but haven't even seen a sketch of what the Model 3 will look like let alone it's specs and features.

 

[apacheguy]

We don't know yet if the Bolt will take advantage of CCS "DC Level 2" which is 200A and is thus equivalent to Tesla's original supercharging 90 kW rate.

Doubtful. 90 miles in 30 min sure sounds slower than 90 kW.

Model 3 will have 'access' to the SC network. It certainly won't be free like the Model S.

Bet it will with the larger packs. Not the standard base model, tho.

 

[RobStark]

There is no realistic scenario where Tesla dominates a large mainstream EV market with $40K vehicles. There is a realistic scenario where Tesla becomes the dominate luxury car brand.

There is no realistic scenario where GM is a major player in a large mainstream EV market with 30k copies per year of a $40k subcompact hatchback (even with just enough interior room to be classified midsize).

I take it by the time there is a large mainstream EV market both GM and Tesla will have much better value propositions.

Unless some OEM goes to work yesterday on a $23k BEV compact sedan with at least 200 miles of range x 300k unit capacity my guess is Tesla will go further down market.