JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The carbon fiber i3 only gets 271 Wh/mi, I don't see the Bolt getting the 200 Wh/mi required to hit 200 miles with a 40kWh pack, which would require 100% charge/discharge.
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Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)
- Thread starter FredTMC
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The carbon fiber i3 only gets 271 Wh/mi, I don't see the Bolt getting the 200 Wh/mi required to hit 200 miles with a 40kWh pack, which would require 100% charge/discharge.
The Model S is designed for safety and range - it just so happens that given that much battery capacity, the discharge C-rates also means high power. As you physically pack that many cells into a vehicle, it will get far heavier and the resulting structure to safely transport that much weight while protecting the passenger cabin integrity means the overall vehicle is heavy even with near 100% aluminum construction.
If you go through a basic design exercise and play with the scaling parameters around an i3, Leaf, Tesla Roadster, and Tesla Model S, you'll note that getting 200 miles of EPA range out of a car with less than 50 kWh is going to be very hard given cells under 300 Wh/kg. The use of exotic lightweight materials becomes a must which shoots up the price. You have to accommodate the total weight, the physical size of a 50 kWh battery pack, take into account total drag. As you increase weight and the physical size of the pack, you end up with increasing both rolling resistance and total aerodynamic drag. It will be a real accomplishment for Tesla to hit 200 miles of EPA range and $35k with a battery pack that is both more dense in terms of specific energy and 30% cheaper. For GM to hit it with a battery pack that has less specific energy (Wh/kg) and costs more ($/kWh) than the current Model S battery pack and have poor aerodynamics on top of that is just unlikely.
The facts do not support your contention that an EV cannot travel "state to state".
Surely you have heard of the Tesla Supercharger network? If not, please see this page Supercharger | Tesla Motors
Note the current extensive coverage of the network and then view the map for the network as it will exist next year.
Tesla Model S owners can travel "state to state" FOR FREE in the real world.
Though maybe not in the alternate universe you appear to inhabit.
There is no state to state charging network in place and there won't be for years to come!
You don't stand a chance in the world traveling around with a battery only car. We're not talking about LA traving down the main highways, I'm talking about real world travel like Ga Tn Carolina Va, etc. Tesla made a big mistake not putting a RX in the car. Charging should be done at home and not sitting in some downtown parking lot for hours that is unsafe.
Thanks
Mike
tonybelding
Active Member
I personally think both the Model S and the Chevy Volt are engineering triumphs, albeit of very different stripes. What leaves me somewhat bemused is the success of the odd-looking, short-ranged, Nissan Leaf. It's done better than I expected, and I'm not quite sure who is buying them or why.
So the LA to NY drive Tesla did was made up? Please keep you Volt defense posts confined to relevant threads. Sure a gas powered car has an easier time traveling in remote areas now that an EV. Won't always be the case.
GM will not be using the existing cells that they are using to get 18.4 kWh into the 2016 Volt. They are using newer generation cells from LG Chem in the Bolt. We don't know any specific details on these new cells. All we know is that LG has been signing up other car makers to use these cells and has been saying in recent interviews that cars can be made using these cells that go 200 miles at a price as low as $30,000 (after credits?). Now GM, as an LG Chem customer, is making the same claim for the Bolt. I'm confident that GM has done their own validation of these cells (GM's failed attempt to validate Envia's prototype cells precipitated that startup's collapse).
GM has their own new lightweight body construction design rules that they are using for the Cadillac CT6 (which will have a plugin powertrain option). I suspect some of these ideas will be used for the "Bolt".
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Huh? You are misinformed. Tesla has already rolled out an extensive fast DC charging network of over 100 stations along interstate highways and are continually adding to it. It is trivial to travel interstate in a 250-285 EV range car with 90+ kW charging and many Tesla drivers are doing it already.
I agree Steve - if were talking about transportation - almost no one is traveling 50 miles a day so why lug around and have the expense of a 85kw car/ pack when its not needed. The Volt has the right idea and the beauty of it is you can drive from Miami to La without seconding guessing it. It would almost drive you crazy to figure out how to do that in a battery only car.
You brag about how awesome it is that you almost never use gas but you then brag about how awesome it is that you can travel '50 states' but also don't see the need to haul about weight that isn't needed 99% of the time. Why carry around a complex gas engine then when a 40 mile EV is good enough?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
And yet people do that all the time. Last July, about 30 Teslas drove from around North America (Florida, New Jersey, New York, Colorado, Arizona, Canada, and many other locations) to California. You can see photos from the drive at superchargingacrossamerica - Twitter Search .
So while what you say undoubtedly makes sense to YOU, the reality is that yes, people do drive cross-country in their 'battery only car' and I can attest to the fact that no one was particularly crazy when they arrived at my house.
Reality, not just talk. Since you don't drive a BEV, it's probably difficult for you to fully understand what BEV drivers experience every day. We've all driven ICEs, so not so hard to understand. Most of us worried about range ... until we started driving a BEV.
Thanks for the reply but the event your talking about is a planed crossing and this is not real world by any chance. For the most part you really can not go anywhere in remote areas I live in N Ga there is no networks from there north unless you travel interstate. By the way I own 3 electrics!
Thanks
Speaking as the owner of the 42nd Volt off the assembly line, I agree that the Volt is a well thought-out car that strikes good engineering tradeoffs that fit the driving profiles of many people at half the cost of today's Model S. I myself commute 100 miles a day when I'm not working at home and the Volt does that very well with workplace charging. I've got 107,000 miles on it. The Volt has been great for me but I view it as a transitional car until I get a 2017 or so model year BEV with 200+ miles of EV range. Most likely that will be a Tesla Model 3 but maybe a Chevy Bolt. And yes, I plan on taking that new BEV on occassional interstate trips. And I'll probably be keeping my Volt as a family 2nd vehicle.
Until I see you acknowledge Tesla's DC supercharging network I'm putting you in my "to be ignored" list for the future.
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Most cross-country trips are 'planned'. Few people take off cross-country without at least thinking about their route. Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods?
Maybe the Volt is the very best vehicle for you & congrats on finding it. But you demonstrate your lack of knowledge about BEVs (& specifically the Tesla supercharging network) by insisting that BEVs won't work for other people 'without driving them crazy'. Simply not true. And that is reality.
And those are?
Jeff. Were saying the same thing, im agreeing with you but there is no supercharging network for rual areas like up here in N Ga . My business keeps me on the road as well howeveer most rual areas I travel there is not any network that is usaable.
thanks
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Breezy
Member
Another Volt owner, here. Tesla has an expanding Supercharger network that works well for many people. While I agree the Supercharger network is not yet adequate in some more remote areas, including where I live, it is growing.
The Volt provides a different kind of flexibility but makes compromises in other areas. It's not necessary nor constructive to continue with your current line of argument.
How recently have you checked? I see Tesla stations in Atlanta, Chattanooga etc. well within the range of any northern Georgia location. In any case, new stations will soon be added and by 2017-2019 it should be hard to find any place in the continental
US without adequate interstate Supercharger coverage. This isn't some weird and unrealistic futuristic fantasy.
Mod Note: Please avoid calling people "trolls" in the forum. It lowers the tone of the conversation... and is also really a personal attack, which is against the terms of service. If you think someone is trolling please report the post using the little triangle button at bottom left.
Thanks!
Thanks!
@Idleup, if you do own EVs they must be very short range cars and you have no comprehension of what it is like to own a Model S that can go 250 miles on a charge. It is easy to travel around the country in a Model S with minimal planning. I have done multiple 850 mile round trips and this summer will be driving from California to Glacier National Park Montana and back and I do not have to concern myself with where to charge: it's Superchargers all the way.
Yes there are some areas of the country that are still not served by Superchargers but by the end of 2016 essentially the entire US will be covered, as well as Europe and other parts of the world.
Your strained denials not withstanding, the reality is that the Model S is the only EV that can be used for long distance travel and can serve as a primary vehicle for many people.
Tens of thousands of Model S owners are the proof.
Yes there are some areas of the country that are still not served by Superchargers but by the end of 2016 essentially the entire US will be covered, as well as Europe and other parts of the world.
Your strained denials not withstanding, the reality is that the Model S is the only EV that can be used for long distance travel and can serve as a primary vehicle for many people.
Tens of thousands of Model S owners are the proof.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The mods will probably have to rein this in to the proper thread (it really doesn't belong here) but I can't help but respond to a common misconception.
A larger battery pack is not worthless weight that you lug around when it's not being "used". It provides more power (acceleration, regen), allows higher charging speeds (in kW), and longer life (by allowing use of a smaller SOC range, avoiding the need to keep the battery fully charged and by fact that cycles/mile is proportionally lower; this is something the Volt itself takes advantage of by using a smaller SOC range out of a larger battery).
In contrast, the ICE you are advocating for IS actually worthless weight you lug around when you aren't using it. All it is a heavy block of metal that does absolutely nothing while you are in EV mode.
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