I really wanted Solar. But the tou use plan and setting the ev, swim spa (92deg), hot tub (100deg), and precooling the ac before peak, has reduced our bill to well below pre ev, making Solar a money loser. We also installed new windows a year ago, and a new cool roof within the last year. The new structure upcoming, and even if it lowers kWh 15% (they estimate 30%), makes Solar maybe a lower for many more. Thus my question a few posts up.
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CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion
- Thread starter jjrandorin
- Start date
RKCRLR
Active Member
I guess income based fixed fees is a real thing. I thought it was just a proposal by the utilities but it was incorporated as part of AB 205:
www.canarymedia.com
Income-based electric bills: The newest utility fight in California
A state law calling for utility bills to be based on household income could drive adoption of EVs and heat pumps — or punish rooftop solar and efficiency.
www.canarymedia.com
Time to contact your local congressperson. I have no issues paying my share of taxes, I just think that putting taxes into utility bills are the wrong way to do it. Are income based vehicle registration fees next?I guess income based fixed fees is a real thing. I thought it was just a proposal by the utilities but it was incorporated as part of AB 205:
Income-based electric bills: The newest utility fight in California
A state law calling for utility bills to be based on household income could drive adoption of EVs and heat pumps — or punish rooftop solar and efficiency.
That said, I also agree that a fixed metering charge should be included as part of your utility bill. But the amounts proposed by utilities are completely out of line. For example, for SDGE there is a minimum bill of $0.33 / day or about $10 / month. IMO the minimum bill should be $10, but then your energy/distribution costs added onto that. Keep CARE rates structured similarly.
This whole thing reeks of "propose something completely ridiculous, then come back with something slightly less ridiculous and they'll be happy".
When combined with NEM3.0, no, based on the proposals I've seen. The cost of batteries is still too expensive to allow for load shifting with a decent ROI.
Maybe if batteries had 20 year warranties instead of 10 year warranties.
Old discussion with the 4 proposals:
The risk I see is this doesn't help with conservation (people may use more now since rates are supposed to go down?) which (using less energy) goes against IOUs goal (more capital projects for more profits) and I don't like how utilities are charging based on income which seems wrong.
I would assume any of the insanely high monthly fees would be fought.
There is also no limits to what they can raise rates back up to in a few years. This whole thing just seems to be a way to kill solar owners, but call it class warfare again.
The risk I see is this doesn't help with conservation (people may use more now since rates are supposed to go down?) which (using less energy) goes against IOUs goal (more capital projects for more profits) and I don't like how utilities are charging based on income which seems wrong.
I would assume any of the insanely high monthly fees would be fought.
There is also no limits to what they can raise rates back up to in a few years. This whole thing just seems to be a way to kill solar owners, but call it class warfare again.
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Plenty of assumptions. The state passed the law so congress is useless. Likely passed with many of those we elected who voted not noticing this gem.
The proposed rates are revenue neutral. So the 15-30% estimated reduction in kWh cost is what the monthly distribution and access fee has to nut. This is the rub, the provision that this part of the fee will be income based.
A third party will be contracted to tell the utility of the person qualifies for a lesser monthly fee. Those who object likely can not submit income info and pay the highest fee.
To change it now would require some sort of repeal or override legislation. I don’t see that gaining traction.
None of this system is new. Ask someone in the SMUD (Sacramento municipal system). As I understand it, they have a monthly access fee which can be discounted for low income. So I see the new big three proposal as the same, a monthly fee, lower kWh, and if one elects to do so and qualifies, then one can ask for a discounted monthly fee.
This does break res Solar. I can see no way to break even on Nem 3. I suspect even on nem2, the lower kWh will remove any payback possibility. Those who leased are well, likely
.
The proposed rates are revenue neutral. So the 15-30% estimated reduction in kWh cost is what the monthly distribution and access fee has to nut. This is the rub, the provision that this part of the fee will be income based.
A third party will be contracted to tell the utility of the person qualifies for a lesser monthly fee. Those who object likely can not submit income info and pay the highest fee.
To change it now would require some sort of repeal or override legislation. I don’t see that gaining traction.
None of this system is new. Ask someone in the SMUD (Sacramento municipal system). As I understand it, they have a monthly access fee which can be discounted for low income. So I see the new big three proposal as the same, a monthly fee, lower kWh, and if one elects to do so and qualifies, then one can ask for a discounted monthly fee.
This does break res Solar. I can see no way to break even on Nem 3. I suspect even on nem2, the lower kWh will remove any payback possibility. Those who leased are well, likely
.Since most on this board seem to already have solar, any info on how current solar sales people are pitching these days? I assume they are still going with their own bizzarro "ROI" calculation, which I put in quotes because how many years of avoided costs it takes to get to zero is not a "return," but anyway.
Are they pitching smaller systems which simply offset use without requiring the calculation on what the utility gives you for over production?
At the time of my 2020 system the costs over twenty years were (a) 11 cents per kwh solar only, (b) 16 cents per kwh with enough PWs to power the whole evening, versus (c) rates of 20 cents to 23 cents (this is LADWP territory).
What is annoying is that, as annoying as it already was to convert the cost of the system to a cost per kwh, and then figure out if the utility was playing any games to screw you out of it, NOW with switching to more fixed charges its yet another calculation which obviously makes solar, and, in the case of a minimum monthly charge solar with battery storage, less cost effective.
Is there a reduction or elimination of the minimum charge with battery back up? There should be, although I suspect there isn't.
Its sad. It really is.
Are they pitching smaller systems which simply offset use without requiring the calculation on what the utility gives you for over production?
At the time of my 2020 system the costs over twenty years were (a) 11 cents per kwh solar only, (b) 16 cents per kwh with enough PWs to power the whole evening, versus (c) rates of 20 cents to 23 cents (this is LADWP territory).
What is annoying is that, as annoying as it already was to convert the cost of the system to a cost per kwh, and then figure out if the utility was playing any games to screw you out of it, NOW with switching to more fixed charges its yet another calculation which obviously makes solar, and, in the case of a minimum monthly charge solar with battery storage, less cost effective.
Is there a reduction or elimination of the minimum charge with battery back up? There should be, although I suspect there isn't.
Its sad. It really is.
For us, I did my own spreadsheet. I would not rely on a sales person. With a swim spa, hot tub, and ev all set for off peak, there is zero chance of making Solar even a modest loser. We have so little peak usage. Plus, add in the likely lower kWh coming soon, and a monthly access fee.
my calcs include the federal credit, no financing costs, as well as the cost of the money (lost interest mainly).
my calcs include the federal credit, no financing costs, as well as the cost of the money (lost interest mainly).
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A good video summarizing the cost shift myth and overall solar net metering.
Whatever sales person was allowed at my HD today was trying to tell me anything to get me to sign. I said it was a money loser because of care and nem3. She said with batteries it would save money. I said how, what with the upcoming monthly access fee and lower kWh, she stumbled and said that buying never makes sense, lease since the batteries fail, and even with care, their deal will save $. BS. But is was entertaining while I waited for some tools to be unlocked.
The funniest part was when she asked about my gas bill.
The funniest part was when she asked about my gas bill.
Project update: After a second go-around, the city finally approved permits for our installation.
Our timeline so far:
2/7/23 - Order Placed, $250 deposit paid (16 panels, 6.4kW, 1 Powerwall)
3/3/23 - Initial Design completed, changes requested to panel placement
3/9/23 - Design updated with new panel placement and approved by us
3/9/23 - Purchase Agreement signed
3/16/23 - Site assessment completed, Tesla recommends roof replacement (asphalt shingle; existing roof 28+ years old)
3/18/23 - Architectural Request form submitted to HOA (roof + solar)
3/24/23 - NEM 2.0 Interconnect Agreement (SCE) signed & submitted
3/23/23 - Written Acceptance for roof + solar received from HOA & forwarded to Tesla
3/24/23 - Full Plan Set uploaded to Tesla account. Changes requested by us to re-route conduit under eaves or in attic
3/29/23 - Full Plan Set updated, $700 charge added for in-attic conduit routing
4/12/23 - Acknowledgement from SCE of NEM 2.0 application, warning of severe backlog and delays to processing
4/17/23 - Tesla submits plans/permit application to the city
5/1/23 - City rejects permit application, sends back to Tesla (not sure of reason)
5/2/23 - "We appreciate your patience" message from SCE regarding NEM 2.0 application
5/26/23 - Roofing contractor completes new roof installation and city permit signed off. Approved/signed permit + photos sent to Tesla & acknowledged
6/9/23 - City website updated; permit approved after resubmit
6/20/23 - Email from Tesla confirming permit approved, stay tuned for installation scheduling communication.
TL;DR: It's been over 4 months since order placed, still not installed, still don't know for sure if we're approved for NEM 2.0
Matt-FL
Member
Four months isn't bad, mine took 17 months from order date to install, then another five to PTO.
For ROI, I did my own calculations based solely on cost reduction. I also only did ROI on panels, I counted batteries as 'peace of mind' generators, however they are impacting my ROI very much in the positive. When I placed my order in June, 2021, my ROI was 8 years 9 months. However, by the time it was installed, the ROI was down to 7 years 3 months because of utility charge hikes. Now, I'm down to 6 years 9 months because I am generating so much more than I am using (currently at 123% energy offset since install) and selling it back, and my utility's costs continue to rise.
In selling my credits back, it's at a fuel cost rate. However, the credits dig into my meter costs, and - since my utility is also my water and sewer provider - it actually cuts into my water and sewer bill instead of just building credits for the end of the year. Those are the costs I hadn't counted in my ROI originally that are significantly reducing the ROI timeline.
For ROI, I did my own calculations based solely on cost reduction. I also only did ROI on panels, I counted batteries as 'peace of mind' generators, however they are impacting my ROI very much in the positive. When I placed my order in June, 2021, my ROI was 8 years 9 months. However, by the time it was installed, the ROI was down to 7 years 3 months because of utility charge hikes. Now, I'm down to 6 years 9 months because I am generating so much more than I am using (currently at 123% energy offset since install) and selling it back, and my utility's costs continue to rise.
In selling my credits back, it's at a fuel cost rate. However, the credits dig into my meter costs, and - since my utility is also my water and sewer provider - it actually cuts into my water and sewer bill instead of just building credits for the end of the year. Those are the costs I hadn't counted in my ROI originally that are significantly reducing the ROI timeline.
In the same way a prison would thank their inmates. "We know you have a choice when it comes to incarceration..."
Y'all can laugh but a few years ago SCE sent me this after a planned outage:
Is there ever an instance where one can be "Extremely Satisfied" with a maintenance outage?
skepticcyclist
Member
Yeah. They always send this.
What is just as bad is when they send the notification that I am currently experiencing an outage with the possible time of restoration after the power has already been restored. Then hours later telling us that it has been restored
Electrph
Member
they ( SCE ) do EXACT same thing every time in central california … I assumed it was our phone service or the area we live in .… well now I know it’s not just us@andy92782 For what it's worth I have a similar NEM 2.0 application inflight that was just approved by SCE this week!
04/12/2023: NEM 2.0 application signed and submitted to SCE
05/02/2023: SCE "We appreciate your patience" email indicating things are still processing and taking 30+ business days
07/18/2023: NEM 2.0 application "Deemed Valid" email indicating it was accepted.
07/18/2023: NEM 2.0 "Pending final documents" email indicating everything is ready to go except the final inspection of the solar system (which hasn't even been designed at this point)
04/12/2023: NEM 2.0 application signed and submitted to SCE
05/02/2023: SCE "We appreciate your patience" email indicating things are still processing and taking 30+ business days
07/18/2023: NEM 2.0 application "Deemed Valid" email indicating it was accepted.
07/18/2023: NEM 2.0 "Pending final documents" email indicating everything is ready to go except the final inspection of the solar system (which hasn't even been designed at this point)
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