Crazy Idea - Bring Back Unlimited Supercharging with a Twist...

[wdolson]

Tesla had a lot of people bemoaning when free supercharging for life went away. They could bring it back as an option you order. When you order the car, for a couple of thousand extra, you could buy unlimited supercharging. They have data on how much people supercharge and they have data on how much people supercharge on the cars with free supercharging. If they priced it so it was a bit more than the average person would pay for supercharging ala carte, it would probably turn into a moderate profit center.

They would have to exclude people who use their Tesla's for commercial use and a few people who travel a lot would make out like bandits, but on average most people would over estimate their potential supercharging, or would just get it out of convenience for when they need it. A lot of people went for the larger battery in their cars even though they rarely use the extra range. I fall into that category.

When they want to boost sales of cars they could discount the program or offer an option through the referral program to either get x KWH of free supercharging (like they are offering now) or a discount on lifetime supercharging. If someone buys a used Tesla that doesn't already have free supercharging, they could offer a window where you could buy it.

 

[dhrivnak]

I disagree as “free” makes many people do crazy things. SuperCharging should be for road trips and normal charging should be at home. Even if only 120v.

 

[wdolson]

The 2016 and earlier cars have free supercharging for the life of the car, and cars made later have free supercharging through the time of ownership, but people aren't going nuts supercharging those cars. I have it and I only use it when traveling. There is now a supercharger fairly close, but I never go there.

Though with the urban superchargers there probably would have to be some kind of limit to prevent people from supercharging for free as their main charging method if someone has one near their home.

The urban superchargers are there for those who live in urban areas and don't have the ability to charge at home.

 

[gene]

I have free Supercharging only 4 miles from me. I never go there, I'd be saving less than minimum wage.

 

[dethman]

I have free Supercharging only 4 miles from me. I never go there, I'd be saving less than minimum wage.

A lot of weirdos out there supercharging to save 5 bucks for an hour of their time...

 

[wdolson]

A lot of weirdos out there supercharging to save 5 bucks for an hour of their time...

People being people, if you search long enough, you can probably find someone who fits some pattern you're looking for, but how common are those people? People who go out of their way to supercharge when free exist, but I don't think they are all that common. They could be reduced significantly by limiting included supercharging within 30 miles of your home to something like 5X times a year.

There are some people whose travel patterns would make included lifetime supercharging pay for itself and then some, but those who pay for it and don't make heavy use of it would make up for it.

 

[TiggerTime]

Tesla come up with a monthly supercharger credit then once that amount was used you would have to pay for SC usage. Unused credit could rollover to next month which would allow those who take longer trips a couple times a year to be able to bank enough for their trips as well.

 

[tjkessler]

It would be an interesting way to raise capital upfront for expanding the network.

 

[mrbulk]

Tesla come up with a monthly supercharger credit then once that amount was used you would have to pay for SC usage. Unused credit could rollover to next month which would allow those who take longer trips a couple times a year to be able to bank enough for their trips as well.

Yeah good idea, kinda like how cellphone minutes used to be.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Tesla had a lot of people bemoaning when free supercharging for life went away. They could bring it back as an option you order. When you order the car, for a couple of thousand extra, you could buy unlimited supercharging.

I think you've been here long enough to remember back in 2012-2014that that's exactly what Tesla did. You could add free unlimited supercharging as an option to any non-Performance Model S (S60 or S85) for $2000. It was "included" in all P85s and P85+ models (meaning the $2000 was added onto the price and you couldn't de-select it). There are threads about it here talking about how the $2000/car is more than enough to build out the SC network and pay for the juice.

A lot of weirdos out there supercharging to save 5 bucks for an hour of their time...

Back when the Newark, DE SC was the only SC in the region and had only 4 stalls, almost every time I stopped there while traveling through there was a local guy there charging his car. Even when it was full and people waiting, he didn't move.

 

[ewoodrick]

Tesla had a lot of people bemoaning when free supercharging for life went away. They could bring it back as an option you order. When you order the car, for a couple of thousand extra, you could buy unlimited supercharging. They have data on how much people supercharge and they have data on how much people supercharge on the cars with free supercharging. If they priced it so it was a bit more than the average person would pay for supercharging ala carte, it would probably turn into a moderate profit center.

They would have to exclude people who use their Tesla's for commercial use and a few people who travel a lot would make out like bandits, but on average most people would over estimate their potential supercharging, or would just get it out of convenience for when they need it. A lot of people went for the larger battery in their cars even though they rarely use the extra range. I fall into that category.

When they want to boost sales of cars they could discount the program or offer an option through the referral program to either get x KWH of free supercharging (like they are offering now) or a discount on lifetime supercharging. If someone buys a used Tesla that doesn't already have free supercharging, they could offer a window where you could buy it.

ONLY if they excluded chargers within 100 miles of work or home locations. (They know where the cars spends it time)

The absolutely worse thing is free Supercharging that people rely on as the primary charging solution. It makes a lousy experience and as can be seen in CA, it vary hard to maintain.

 

[banned-66611]

You really don't want free supercharging to be a thing. It will just clog up chargers with people trying to get the most free electricity they can.

 

[rhumbliner]

Frankly, I’m not sure FUSC is that big of a draw. I’ve convinced several folks to buy Tesla and the cost of SC’ing has never been a factor — I simply point out that SC rates only come into play on long trips and are still less than gasoline prices. What really resonates is being to charge overnight at home and have a full charge every morning. Overnight charging is something that affects folks every day while SC’ing on long trips happens maybe a couple of times a year.

 

[wdolson]

I think you've been here long enough to remember back in 2012-2014that that's exactly what Tesla did. You could add free unlimited supercharging as an option to any non-Performance Model S (S60 or S85) for $2000. It was "included" in all P85s and P85+ models (meaning the $2000 was added onto the price and you couldn't de-select it). There are threads about it here talking about how the $2000/car is more than enough to build out the SC network and pay for the juice.



Back when the Newark, DE SC was the only SC in the region and had only 4 stalls, almost every time I stopped there while traveling through there was a local guy there charging his car. Even when it was full and people waiting, he didn't move.

I joined this forum in 2015. I was a bit late to the party.

Now that you mention it I recall reading about the original 60s having supercharging as a separate charge, but I didn't realize the base 85s had it too.

I've been reading a book called Utopia for Realists
https://www.amazon.com/Utopia-Reali.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

He cites a lot of studies that demonstrate that many of the concerns people have about these sorts of things are unfounded. However, the author doesn't take into account the small number of people who will abuse anything that's unusually cheap or free. Most of the rules we have in society are to stop a small number of people from harming others.

$2000 added to the price of the car would pay for 8000 KWH of juice at $0.25/KWH. For a car that got 3 miles/KWH, that's 24,000 miles of driving. Few people are going to road trip that much over the time they own their car. The average person drives about 12-15K miles a year and most of it is local.

I wouldn't geo-fence to a point that a person can't supercharge within 100 miles of home ever. I've taken a number of day trips that required me to get a "bump" at a supercharger to get home. The Woodburn, OR supercharger is 50 miles from home, the Dalles supercharger is around 70 miles, and the Centralia supercharger is 95 miles. Those are the three I would likely go to if headed on a day trip N, S, or E. The only other supercharger to the north is Vancouver, WA, which is even closer to home and going E are no other options yet. There is a supercharger in Tigard, OR now, but that's only about 30 miles away.

In 2016 I made 2-4 trips to Salem, OR in the span of a month. Each time we stopped at the Woodburn SC on the way back because the car didn't quite have enough range to make the entire round trip on one charge. A similar trip to Olympia, WA required a stop in Centralia for the same reason.

Though I do agree that some sort of geo-fencing of superchargers too near home and possibly work would be a good idea. I would make the range shorter and put a yearly limit on how many times you could use a supercharger near home. This would allow people who are returning home from a long and don't have quite enough to make it can get a bump charge to make it home.

Another way to limit local chargers would be to put some sort of limit on that would fit the pattern of returning from a roadtrip such as you have driven at least x since your last charge all in the same day and you have less than y charge left. Y would be the range to get home plus say 50% (for a buffer). So if you lived 50 miles from the supercharger you were using, you would not be able to charge for free if you had more than 75 miles of range left.

Though those formulas could get complicated pretty fast.

There are a lot of people who dream about taking long road trips. The motorhome industry exists because of it. Lots of people buy motorhomes and use them far less than they thought they would. A lot of people would opt for lifetime supercharging and end up not using it anywhere near as much as they thought they would. A few would use it a lot. If priced right Tesla would make money on it because while the few who use it a lot would be a net loss, those who opted for it and didn't take full advantage of it would pay for the program.

 

[brianman]

$2000 added to the price of the car would pay for 8000 KWH of juice at $0.25/KWH.

You're assuming that the "cost" to Tesla is merely the price of the energy. It's not.

 

[tomas]

I prefer mine with an olive.

 

[wdolson]

You're assuming that the "cost" to Tesla is merely the price of the energy. It's not.

$0.25/KWH is in the ballpark what Tesla charges for supercharging in many regions. I was using a ballpark "retail" rate for supercharging. Looking on Tesla's site, I see they claims the US average is $0.28/KWH (where charged per KWH, some places are by time because of local laws), but on their supercharger page they say driving 2400 miles will cost you $201. So 24,000 miles will be $2010.

 

[brianman]

$0.25/KWH is in the ballpark what Tesla charges for supercharging in many regions. I was using a ballpark "retail" rate for supercharging. Looking on Tesla's site, I see they claims the US average is $0.28/KWH (where charged per KWH, some places are by time because of local laws), but on their supercharger page they say driving 2400 miles will cost you $201. So 24,000 miles will be $2010.

You seem to be missing my point by reiterating your assumption that I'm stating is incorrect.

 

[wdolson]

You seem to be missing my point by reiterating your assumption that I'm stating is incorrect.

OK, I don't understand what extra costs there are. I can't find the cite right now, but I recall Elon saying that the fees covered electricity, maintenance and expansion. If we use the $0.28/KWH rate and about 3 mi/KWH efficiency, that's 21,000 miles of supercharging people are paying for upfront for $2000. Tesla can invest that money and it's worth more than $2K to Tesla.

So what cost am I missing?

 

[brianman]

OK, I don't understand what extra costs there are. I can't find the cite right now, but I recall Elon saying that the fees covered electricity, maintenance and expansion. If we use the $0.28/KWH rate and about 3 mi/KWH efficiency, that's 21,000 miles of supercharging people are paying for upfront for $2000. Tesla can invest that money and it's worth more than $2K to Tesla.
So what cost am I missing?

Elon isn't always consistent in his message, unfortunately, but I don't recall any statement to the effect that the price paid includes anything but electricity costs. To my recollection, the phrasing was something like "industry standard rates" which would only mean the electricity.

Nonetheless, even if the fees did cover the installation and (where appropriate) property fees (rental, tax, whatever) that's missing an important part of the picture. If the sites were at 100% capacity and (your assumption) the fees cover the installation, usage, and maintenance of the locations, they would still be failing. The goal of the network is to address the need of travelers to "fill enough" quickly and conveniently, to the degree possible by current tech., and move on with their trips. Congestion directly opposes that goal. Free supercharging incentivizes disproportionately high congestion.

IMO, it should never have been "free supercharging for life" but perhaps something like "N years of free supercharging for the first owner". This would have provided nearly as much initial impact to the social consciousness of the Tesla offering without setting the stage for drama years later when "free forever" had to be adjusted for the reality of the vehicle production scale they always intended. It's a similar problem to what's discussed ad nauseum in pollical circles w/r/t entitlements but I digress, perhaps.