David Noland suggests Model S pedal placement is a safety hazard

[dsm363]

and the power is dangerous.... You can get going really fast in this thing.
oh, and the brakes are dangerous.... You could probably detach a retina with the stopping power.

It is amazing what we can get used to and how fast we can get used to it. I drove my Maranello the other day as it has been lacking any semblance of love over the last year. Its fast but not as fast as the MS. It stops but not as well as the MS. The V12 will most certainly overpower the brakes. It is a lovely beast and probably dangerous if you view it from just the right direction.

The MS is not to be believed from a safety and security standpoint especially given it has the capability to get you into soooo much trouble oh so quickly; and yet we find something to complain about.

I, for one, find absolutely no problems what so ever with the pedal placement and have heard the "chime" one or two times since taking delivery of what instantly became my daily driver.

I do not want to be rude here but I simply do not buy this pedal thing.

I've only seen it maybe twice in 18 months and never anything dangerous.

Do you feel they could improve the pedal position? I don't really see it as an issue either but it certainly gets his article more clicks than a normal review.

 

[teslasguy]

I completely agree with Dr Computer. I've come close on numerous occasions to bumping something for exactly the reasons he's articulated so well. Fortunately after nearly 1 1/2 years I've pretty much trained myself to gong overboard in avoiding this situation. And unfortunately not at all surprised by his response from Jerome.

 

[dsm363]

If it truly is a problem is this not something they could adjust in future production? They could do some without announcing anything or even being forced to offer retrofits.

 

[markwj]

I'm confused in that he went to the trouble of measuring 22 cars in dealers lots, but seems to think the power is not cut if brake pedal is pressed. In the article, he states: (a) pressed both pedals but car wouldn't stop fast enough, (b) pressed harder on both pedals but car still wouldn't stop fast enough, (c) took foot off and then put on brake pedal alone and car stopped. If truly reflective of what he did, that would seem to indicate that the power is not cut when the brake pedal is pressed.

Can someone try to repeat this? Let the car coast at say 30mph, then press hard on brake pedal overlapping and also pushing down on accelerator, then see how long it takes to stop. Then, repeat just pressing the brake pedal. Compare the two times.

I suspect the cold weather regen limit was contributory to this. I was certainly shocked by the radically different braking characteristics of my Roadster the first time I did a range mode charge and then drove down the hill from my home.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I suspect driver error owing to "poor" design - of his body, that is, not of the car. I don't mean it as a slight at all; we are all shaped and sized differently and it's just that there's a slight/egregious mismatch in some cases. It'd be impossible to make the car perfect for everyone, particularly when it comes to physical dimensions.

That said, even after so much driving with the MS, I still sometimes overestimate the stopping power of regen, even when it's not limited by cold weather or a high state of charge. I've had a few occasions where I had to apply the brakes much harder than I should have as I left it up to regen for too long and very late. This may be a big contributory factor for folks like Mr. Noland as well.

 

[rjcbox]

I think this is the main issue: "As with most plane crashes, my near-accident was the unlucky convergence of a series of circumstances:I have big feet, size 13. I was wearing clunky winter boots."

 

[pilotSteve]

Hey, we don't "heel and toe" drive so why are the pedals so close? I think it can be improved. With regen the car begins braking immediately upon lifting foot from the accelerator even as foot is moved to the brake pedal. That gives a few hundred milliseconds or more advantage over any ICE car.

I've had the warning beep several times, and twice have had braking feel very limited (e.g. no where near the deceleration I expected). As other have posted, I immediately moved my foot off the brake very briefly then mashed it again which resulted in the expected stopping force.

After reading this I wonder I had both pedals down together somehow during those two attempted stops and that was causing the "limited braking". Happened so quickly I do not recall ever hearing the warning chime but then again I was on-then-off the brake very quickly to remedy the "not slowing" issue so perhaps the warning time threshold had not passed.

In any event, I do think safety and comfort can be improved without compromising driving pleasure by increasing the vertical distance between the pedals.

 

[Discoducky]

Ok, so I also wear size 13 and also wear big clunky boots (living in the northwest) and I've experienced this once on my very first drive and the car does exactly what you would expect: The throttle is disabled and the brakes operate normally when both the brake and throttle are depressed.

The car did this in Jan 13 and still does today with 5.8 and is exactly what I would expect and hope.

But, yes, the car is heavy and when regen is minimized due to cold weather or a full battery on a downhill slope it can be a surprise how much weight the brakes have to slow down. I say 'surprise' to someone who is new to the car and not as much to a seasoned owner. I live on a hill with a 12% grade so I experience this scenario quite often.

David has voiced concerns in the past about the car that I felt were out of my reasonableness spectrum so I take his feedback with a grain of salt.

Also, his own investigation showed that other cars have pedals spaced closer together and those cars will not disable the engine when both pedals are depressed so I still believe the Model S wins in this safety scenario.

 

[Denarius]

I've never had this occur accidentally. I do it intentionally every time I drag race. I do not want the behavior or pedal placement changed.

 

[JohnQ]

I completely agree with Dr Computer. I've come close on numerous occasions to bumping something for exactly the reasons he's articulated so well. Fortunately after nearly 1 1/2 years I've pretty much trained myself to gong overboard in avoiding this situation. And unfortunately not at all surprised by his response from Jerome.

Do you feel Jerome's response is unreasonable? Spacing is within industry norms and there are additional features to mitigate the results of a simultaneous press. He disagrees that it's a problem and explained why. Not sure what else one should expect.

If the brake were moved farther to the left then there would be complaints from narrow-footed people that it's too far away and their foot slips of the edge of the pedal. If moved higher, then toes get caught under the pedal causing accidents.

 

[mnx]

FWIW I have size 13 feet as well and don't find it to be a problem. I have accidentally touched the brake pedal a couple times over the last year while trying to use the accelerator but never the other way around.

I try to avoid bulky winter boots whenever possible.

 

[yobigd20]

he has really slow reaction time?

this

Old people have this problem a lot.

and this

should not be driving?

and definitely this.

if he can't accurately tell the difference/distance between the brake and "gas" pedal he probably should stop driving until fully automated cars are out.

 

[lolachampcar]

I would be wiling to bet that I could take any car made and nit pick it to the point that I could find a dozen potential safety hazards. For me, it is a question of reasonableness. Has Tesla done a sufficiently good enough job designing MS such that the average operator with normal levels of skill can safely operate the vehicle. Again, for me, the answer is absolutely yes.

The truly sad part is that Tesla may very well evaluate pedal placement and make some minor adjustments to improve an already good design. There are people that will use this to attack and say "see, I was right. The car was dangerous and Tesla had to fix it". The net result of people being unwilling or unable to accept responsibility for operating a motor vehicle is an impediment to further improvement. Tesla now must consider not only what they may want to do to systematically improve their product but also just how those efforts will play out in the court of public opinion. I would prefer leaving what is obviously a very talented group of engineers be to do the job they feel they need to do. They've already proved to me they know what they are doing by taking the previous definition of a car and making it so much better.

 

[wycolo]

So an electrified Miata is used as an argument against MS design. Brilliant.

Until you've put in a good 20 to 30 hours driving any new differently designed car you shouldn't be wildly smashing your feet into the pedal area.

Brake with your clutch foot, please.
--

 

[notailpipe2112]

I had this happen once wearing big clunky winter boots. I was just stopping to turn left at a light and the misfire actually caused me to lurch into an (intersection) before the brake kicked in as has been described in this thread. It's not a big deal, but it is an issue and can be easily fixed a few ways including a type of software tweak, I suspect.

 

[dsm363]

I would be wiling to bet that I could take any car made and nit pick it to the point that I could find a dozen potential safety hazards. For me, it is a question of reasonableness. Has Tesla done a sufficiently good enough job designing MS such that the average operator with normal levels of skill can safely operate the vehicle. Again, for me, the answer is absolutely yes.

The truly sad part is that Tesla may very well evaluate pedal placement and make some minor adjustments to improve an already good design. There are people that will use this to attack and say "see, I was right. The car was dangerous and Tesla had to fix it". The net result of people being unwilling or unable to accept responsibility for operating a motor vehicle is an impediment to further improvement. Tesla now must consider not only what they may want to do to systematically improve their product but also just how those efforts will play out in the court of public opinion. I would prefer leaving what is obviously a very talented group of engineers be to do the job they feel they need to do. They've already proved to me they know what they are doing by taking the previous definition of a car and making it so much better.

Well said. If Tesla does anything about it I think a silent update during production would be best. Someone will figure it out eventually but it could just be part of other tweaks to the interior...etc. It really seems like a non issue to me at least since I wear bigger shoes than Nolan and have worn winter boots with no problems.

 

[neroden]

If the brake were moved farther to the left then there would be complaints from narrow-footed people that it's too far away and their foot slips of the edge of the pedal. If moved higher, then toes get caught under the pedal causing accidents.

Bingo. The pedals are excellently placed IMO. I have narrow feet and I wouldn't want the brake to be any further to the left -- it's quite far to the left already, frankly.

I suppose Tesla could design user-adjustable pedals which could be slid to the left or the right with some sort of adjustment bolt, but that seems like a very fancy thing to do -- maybe for future cars.

 

[mknox]

To me, this is nonsense. I have never once hit both pedals or the wrong one accidentally, and I drove with winter boots for the last several months.

 

[JST]

Yes, this is pure BS. I actually tend to drive with my right foot overlapping both the brake and the gas, and brake with the ball of my foot. This is just how I've gotten used to positioning my feet so that I can heel and toe cars with manual transmissions. Even doing that I've never had an issue in the Tesla.

 

[rage_777]

My question is: If the M3 pedal placement is worse, according to his testing of the 22 cars, then why haven't there been more M3 crashes and a safety recall for their pedal placement? I did a quick Google search and only found a couple of forum posts about pedal placement. Is that because it's a manual car as David suggests? Even in a manual car, you use your right foot for both the brake and go pedals.