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Discussion: Model 3 and Y price drop Jan 2023 / April 2023 / Oct 2023 and All other Pricing Speculation going forward

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Nothing is left out or deceptive. It's a list of all the models they have tested.
Yep. I don’t know why there is any suspicion of this list. They get cars and they test them. If you think there should be a certain vehicle tested and added to the list.. then I’m sure they would love for you to loan them that specific vehicle.. so they can do just that.

The reason why I value this list over every other “range” list.. is because the testing is done at 70mph on the exact same route. Let’s be real. Range only matters when taking long trips.. and if you are taking a long trip you are almost guaranteed to be in highway traveling around 70mph. EPA testing is like around 50mph.. and If you are traveling that slowly for several hours I doubt you are far from home.
 
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Nothing is left out or deceptive. It's a list of all the models they have tested.
I understand the list. I think it’s naive to suggest that not having one of the longest range EVs available on it, that has been on the market in plentiful numbers for 2+ years now, paints an incomplete and misleading picture. There’s no reason they couldn’t have tested one by now.
 
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Yep. I don’t know why there is any suspicion of this list. They get cars and they test them. If you think there should be a certain vehicle tested and added to the list.. then I’m sure they would love for you to loan them that specific vehicle.. so they can do just that.

The reason why I value this list over every other “range” list.. is because the testing is done at 70mph on the exact same route. Let’s be real. Range only matters when taking long trips.. and if you are taking a long trip you are almost guaranteed to be in highway traveling around 70mph. EPA testing is like around 50mph.. and If you are traveling that slowly for several hours I doubt you are far from home.
I'll grant you that they may not have had access to every model we would like to see. (And I see now that they did rate the Model S Plaid).

But how is it helpful to compare the short-range version of one model against the long-range version of another? And 3 different model years. They could easily have borrowed a Model S LR to test. It's not like they are rare. It's not a fair comparison. Either sloppy or they had an agenda.
 
I'll grant you that they may not have had access to every model we would like to see. (And I see now that they did rate the Model S Plaid).

But how is it helpful to compare the short-range version of one model against the long-range version of another? they could easily have borrowed a Model S LR to test. It's not like they are rare. It's not a fair comparison. Either sloppy or they had an agenda.

You should ask them that question and report back.
 
Lucid's range isn't from efficiency, it's from adding more batteries a lot more right under the rear seat passengers. That's a great place to stick batteries lol. It's nice to have your knees tucked under your chin, hypebole<---yes.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm off, but here's an article on that:


Not recently, but everything I've read has found the Lucid to me more efficient overall vs. a Tesla and it's not just having more batteries.
 
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm off, but here's an article on that:


Not recently, but everything I've read has found the Lucid to me more efficient overall vs. a Tesla and it's not just having more batteries.
It's not. It's from a bigger battery. :rolleyes:
 
Wow! I stand corrected. The offerings from Mercedes seem like the epa rating has a huge buffer and that the real world range is actually higher! The total opposite of Tesla! I think that once the non-supercharger charging infrastructure gets on par Tesla might have some worries. However, this is case with these great cars that are well over $100k. I wonder what the cheaper segment will have to offer that competes with the 3/Y as well as these more expensive cars do. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but nothing out there yet competes with this segment ($40k-$75k) that has supercharger reliability and range north of 350?


No one will beat Tesla on supercharger reliability for now. At least not yet. Downside is during holidays, you might have to wait as more people go EV and take them long distances since Tesla is sorta known to be reliable for that (one Thanksgiving was insanely bad).

I'd see what the Korean brands do since they are the ones with massively fast charging (assume you use the right charger) and their pricing is around the $50k mark or less. From the list, real world Kia EV6 Wind RWD tops 323 miles, Mach-E CA Rt1 is 344. I think real world is more important since almost no one ever gets Tesla's published range. You can play around with abrp on very long trips, if the charge network is reliable, it's not really that big of a deal having massive range honestly from my play/testing since it's only affects the start and you will charge to 80% and that's it (I tested with a Taycan...whole trip was very close to Tesla).

Mercedes is building their own charging network now, doesn't sound like it's only for long road trip travel.

These numbers should continue to go higher and higher I assume, but once cars come with super fast charging like Hyundai where it can go from 10 % -> 90% of whatever in like 18 minutes, assuming you have good chargers, the range will be less of an issue.

Outside of people doing long trips all the time, I think most people will not use superchargers much. You also have to factor in some cars come with free charging for a few years (like BMW).

Prices for kWh on superchargers can also be very expensive now I've noticed.
 
Well, I was asking you first! I thought maybe you would know.

I agree that real world assessments of range are valuable, but only for the model tested, not in the form of ranking non-like things.
Yeah I dont run that website. I honestly have no idea how they choose which model to test.

That said the results seem legit. And what you see.. is what you get.
 
Yeah I dont run that website. I honestly have no idea how they choose which model to test.

That said the results seem legit. And what you see.. is what you get.
OK. I agree. It is what it is.

For me, the apparent fact that they tested cars that were 2 or 3 years old (and therefore had maybe lost 10-20% battery capacity) and compared them to newish cars, or maybe they tested 2 or 3 years apart, meaning quite possibly quite different conditions let alone battery technology changes, along with the apples to oranges LR vs SR comparisons, diminishes the value in my mind.
 
OK. I agree. It is what it is.

For me, the apparent fact that they tested cars that were 2 or 3 years old (and therefore had maybe lost 10-20% battery capacity) and compared them to newish cars, or maybe they tested 2 or 3 years apart, meaning quite possibly quite different conditions let alone battery technology changes, along with the apples to oranges LR vs SR comparisons, diminishes the value in my mind.
I don’t think that test was conducted all at once. It’s a collection of test data taken over time. When they test a new vehicle, it gets added to the list.
 
OK. I agree. It is what it is.

For me, the apparent fact that they tested cars that were 2 or 3 years old (and therefore had maybe lost 10-20% battery capacity) and compared them to newish cars, or maybe they tested 2 or 3 years apart, meaning quite possibly quite different conditions let alone battery technology changes, along with the apples to oranges LR vs SR comparisons, diminishes the value in my mind.

The cars tested were not "2 or 3 years old when tested". And therefore did not suffer from the heavy battery degradation you are suggesting. They are simply results completed years earlier than now.. and the list has steadily grown year after year. Some of those results are now 1, 2, or even 3 years old. I am pretty sure each result is from a specific overall review of the vehicle.. as their exact review is the one I used as a basis for purchasing my wife's ID.4 back in 2021. Notice the date of the actual test completion: August 20, 2021 (two years ago!!): Volkswagen ID.4 Pro 70-MPH Highway Range Test.

The most important takeaway here is that Tesla is widely sorted and well-represented.. with results shown from a range of vehicles. A 2019 M3LR, 2020 MYLR, 2021 MS-Plaid, and 2021 M3LR were all tested.. so I am not seeing where this whole conspiracy theory stuff is coming from. As you said.. it is what it is.

As for the regular long-range S/X missing from the testing. Personally speaking, I can't afford a new $100,000 S or $120,000 X. So even if it achieved 500 miles in real-world testing (like the $165,000 Lucid they tested).. I honestly couldn't care any less. What is important to me is that vehicles I can actually afford, which do fall within my price range (up to $65K) are also well represented. That includes the M3LR & MYLR, Mach-E & EV F150, ID.4, Polestar, Ioniq5 & Kia EV6, and even the RIvian R1T (original starting price was $67,500). These are all vehicles very comparable in price and I imagine the ones most new EV buyers care about.

One thing I would like to see is this exact same sort of controlled test method done for EVERY EV. I find that the EPA range of many EVs is so different from the real-world range.. That whatever is shown on the sticker (or in the car) is often useless. In most cases, Tesla grossly overestimates its real-world range.. while companies like Porsche grossly underestimate it. I didn't notice this until Alex on Autos pointed out that every Tesla he has ever driven will only get about 90% of its indicated range.. even in the best conditions. Since the EPA publishes such unreliable range expectations.. it would be awesome to see some 3rd party step in and give us better "real-world" results. The list I posted by InsideEVs is just a start from what I'd like to see done.

Specifically what I'd like to see is a "real world" test of every EV showing results for these situations:
  • 70mph range test in 80-degree weather, interior climate control set to 70 degrees.
  • 70mph range test in 20-degree weather, interior climate control set to 70 degrees.
  • Minutes of DC fast-charging it takes to add 100 miles of "real world" range @ 20% SoC in 80-degree weather
  • Minutes of DC fast-charging it takes to add 100 miles of "real world" range @ 20% SoC in 20-degree weather
  • 70mph range test while towing a 3,500lb trailer.. if it comes equipped with a Class III tow hitch and 2" receiver.
The idea is that most EVs are now capable of 200, even 300 miles of range in perfect conditions and low speeds. However, that range can drop tremendously while driving 70+ mph.. and/or in freezing temperatures.. and/or while pulling a trailer. Just as important as how far you can actually drive off a full battery.. is how much time it actually takes to recharge that battery on a longer trip. So I'd also like to see DCFC tests showing how long it takes to add another 100 miles of "real world" range. Especially in freezing weather, as many EVs do not have the ability to precondition the battery. This type of testing is important as it's likely DCFCs are still spaced so far apart in many parts of the US.. that it might actually take another 100 miles of driving until you can reach the next DCFC to continue your trip.. or arrive at your final destination.

I would imagine the above testing covers the overwhelming amount of long-distance driving scenarios. As an EV owner, you know the drill. For long trips, we commonly charge that battery up to 100% before leaving.. aim to drive until the battery reaches 20%.. then look for a DC fast charger. The above testing would give us a much better picture of exactly how far you can go.. and how realistically long it will take you to get there when driving any specific EV.
 
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Perhaps everyone that needed to complain about the price drop has said their piece.

Yah, I think most folks have passed the 5 stages of grief and are sitting at Acceptance now. :)


I think the test websites are fine. These range tests are extremely boring if you see Kyle or Tom do them on youtube. As long as a general idea of what's published and what's real world is known, that's good enough. It's impossible to know everyone's area, weather, tires, etc...If someone is off by a few tens of miles, I don't think it's a huge deal.