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Do you plan to pay for your TM3 with Bitcoins?

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I think you can buy $1000 money orders from the USPS for $1.6 and pay by debit card

Slightly more expensive or cheaper depending on the maximum withdrawal the ATM allows. I can take cash out of an ATM for $2 per transaction. The ATM would have to allow $1250 or more per transaction to make it cheaper.

A bonus might be that if I use my credit unions ATM I at least don't have to carry cash around. I can deposit it on site before I leave.

A minus is the ATM might have it's own fees on top of the $2 fee Bitpay charges for an ATM transaction.

I suppose I could ask the CU if they can wave that fee since I'm a member (not sure if I can automate that by swiping both cards at needed points).
 
Section 5331 defines the reportable transaction amount as $10K. However, IANAL and much of the code is full of vague language like "a denomination or amount which the Secretary (of the Treasury) shall prescribe," so I'm sure it can vary based on context.

It also deals with "structuring." I have personal knowledge of someone who got ensnared, and it is my unconfirmed belief that more people will be scrutinized. My banker told me that her bank has a dedicated unit to evaluate and report potential structuring attempts. She would not tell me their threshold other than it was a lot less than 10K. The Post Office has a similar reporting unit.

Oh, I was not the person. It was the brother of a client. I told him to find a defense attorney.
 
Why would use you use bitcoins for anything other than as wealth storage? It'd be like taking your gold bars and trying to buy a Tesla with it.

Imagine sending the BTC and waiting for the confirmations to come in before Tesla hands the fob over....

No, I'm keeping my cypto until the prices compel me to take and use the fiat for something else that generates sufficient revenue so I don't have to work anymore.
 
Anyone here also have any Ether?

From everything I've read, consensus seems to have it being the better play in the long run.

Also, for those who might not already be aware - the IRS received a favorable ruling yesterday from a judge that compels Coinbase to produce information on all users with over $20k worth of trading activity.

Don't roll the dice omitting those capital gains...

Coinbase ordered to give the IRS data on users trading more than $20,000
 
I am not suggesting that the inventors of these cryto-currencies are anything but good citizens, but I cannot help but look at the behavior of these things in the market and be reminded of pyramid schemes. Perhaps any bubble has that vibe.
 
Let me guess: quite by chance, you happen to own that currency

I don't own any crypto-currency. With what expendable income I do have, I invest in stocks.

Just wanted to hear the opinions of those here who perhaps hold both BTC and ETH and may be more knowledgeable about block chain and crypto-currencies than I.

Again, I've read up on it a modest amount, and keep seeing Ether as being touted as a better play long term. Not to say anything I read shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt, because this all could blow up spectacularly.
 
Why ? Did you suspect illegal activity ?

1. He made numerous $3,000-$8,000 deposits in cash over several weeks.

2. This series of events happened twice in about six months.

3. He worked for wages.

This behavior does not pass the smell test. People with legitimate sources of receiving currency AND who report those receipts somewhere on their 1040/1065/1120/1120S have no reason to dribble their deposits into the bank.

4. He received a cheery visit from a gun-toting employee of a federal agency.

Personally, I think he was a cocky SOB who probably was not in the recreational drug trade but was earning supplemental income on the side. He came across disingenuous and smug. He thought he was smarter than the alphabet soup of federal agencies, and could conceal his tax evasion through structuring. But I could be wrong.

This is like the cop who sees a driver going 35 in a 45 at 1:00AM. Driver has slow reaction times to traffic light changes. Driver leaves turn signal on well after the lane change. What are the odds that this driver is stone sober? Possible, but very unlikely.
 
1. He made numerous $3,000-$8,000 deposits in cash over several weeks.

2. This series of events happened twice in about six months.

I don't think that is a problem for me, I can't see reasonable way of doing more than about $1000 a week from Bitcoin to my checking account.

How do you think it'd look if I did literally $1000 a week every week for several months, non stop, like clockwork.

If the agent asks, it's literally the only way I see to move it to my checking account.
 
I don't think that is a problem for me, I can't see reasonable way of doing more than about $1000 a week from Bitcoin to my checking account.

How do you think it'd look if I did literally $1000 a week every week for several months, non stop, like clockwork.

If the agent asks, it's literally the only way I see to move it to my checking account.

But did (would) you declare it as capital gains? that's what it is once it's changed from crypto back to $
 
But did (would) you declare it as capital gains? that's what it is once it's changed from crypto back to $

I don't agree with that interpretation but I would pay whatever taxes the IRS codes require.

If I exchange USD to Canadian Dollars on a trip and come back with some left over and exchange them back at a more favorable rate am I supposed to report that as a capital gain? I was under the impression that you would not pay tax on currency conversion (fees both ways yes for the exchanges, but not tax to the IRS).

I see BTC as currency not an investment and not capital.

I'm sure the argument some have is that it wasn't currency but it was instead an investment. I don't see how you can call it an investment if I never put any USD into bitcoin. It was income that hasn't been taxed but that should be taxed at normal rates not capital gains rates. To be clear I've never bought a bitcoin or any portion of a bitcoin. I received it from mining.

Now if that is going to be taxed as income / capital gains should I be able to deduct the cost of the PC I used for mining? What about the cost of all the PC upgrades I've made to keep a working PC in the modern age and secure my wallet so I can spend the BTC at some point? What about payments for an ISP so I can transmit transactions? And electric bill so I could power the PC, modem, switch/router/firewall?

It sure wouldn't be fair to consider the full value of bitcoin spent as the income / gain. Since I paid for equipment, internet access, and electricity.

Even if the determination is that it would be capital gains, I earned my bitcoin in 2011 so it'll be long term at worst if not normal income. A quick google search says "taxpayers in the 10% and 15% tax brackets would pay a 0% long-term capital gains tax rate" so I'm thinking that could make it less expensive than if I reported it as income. If that is the case I just put it down on the appropriate line and don't pay tax?

I suppose I'll have to figure that all out in the next few weeks. I'm pretty sure I'll remain in the 15% bracket for 2017 since it'd take a gross over 70,000 or so to have an AGI over 47,275. Still how it plays out this year will give me insight on how to budget for it after 2018 should I pull a bunch out in 2018. Maybe I should convert a bunch to USD before the end of 2017 to get it in before my income bumps me to another tax bracket.
 
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Tax Tips for Bitcoin and Virtual Currency - TurboTax Tax Tips & Videos

Bitcoin used to pay for goods and services taxed as income
If you are an employer paying with Bitcoin, you must report employee earnings to the IRS on W-2 forms.

  • You must convert the Bitcoin value to U.S. dollars as of the date each payment is made and keep careful records.
  • Wages paid in virtual currency are subject to withholding to the same extent as dollar wages.
Employees must report their total W-2 wages in dollars, even if earned as Bitcoin. Self-employed individuals with Bitcoin gains or losses from sales transactions also must convert the virtual currency to dollars as of the day earned, and report the figures on their tax returns.
Bitcoins held as capital assets are taxed as property
If you hold Bitcoins as a capital asset, you must treat them as property for tax purposes. General tax principles applicable to property transactions apply.

If the Bitcoins are held as a capital asset, like stocks or bonds, any gain or loss from the sale or exchange of the asset is taxed as a capital gain or loss. Otherwise, the investor realizes ordinary gain or loss on an exchange.
Bitcoin miners must report receipt of the virtual currency as income
Some people "mine" Bitcoins by using computer resources to validate Bitcoin transactions and maintain the public Bitcoin transaction ledger.

According to the IRS, when a taxpayer successfully “mines” Bitcoins and has earnings from that activity whether in the form of Bitcoins or any other form, he or she must include it in his gross income after determining the fair market dollar value of the virtual currency as of the day he received it. If a bitcoin miner is self-employed, his or her gross earnings minus allowable tax deductions are also subject to the self-employment tax.

So apparently I should have reported it as income from mining in 2011 (but the rule didn't exist until 2014). If I report it as income when I mine it why should I be taxed on it again when I spend it? Why doesn't the mining section mention deductions for expenses to generate the coins?

"held as a capital asset" is my USD in my checking account "held as a capital asset"? When I write a check in USD should I check it's value vs every other currency on the planet and report capital gains or losses?

If money in a local bank or credit union isn't subject to capital gains why should bitcoin be subject to it? I guess the simple answer is the house always wins. I'll just have to take their word for it that its taxable or not. I'm sure it'll do no good to try and find logic in the tax code.
 
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How about shorting TSLA to buy M3 ;)

Good way to increase the cost of your car. ;)

I'd say, buy shares. This guy bought shares at 35$ and after 1 to 1,5 year could buy a model S from his profits (at 5m25s).

He's not the only one. The first Model S I ever got to drive was owned by a guy who bought it that way. He was coming to town and needed a place to charge. I offered my garage and 14-40 for him to plug in, and he let me drive the car before we plugged it in. He had put his entire retirement savings into TSLA at $25 or $35. When TSLA was at $35 I considered investing big in it. But folks may remember that when TSLA was $35 Tesla was in a serious cash-flow crunch, the Model S was not yet being sold, and there was a very real chance the company would fail. I think I bought a couple hundred shares, but it was too risky for me to take a really big position. (My "big" gamble on Tesla was buying my Roadster. If they'd gone under there would have been no parts or service.)

If you guess right on a start-up company, you can become fabulously rich. If you guess wrong you can get wiped out. And there are far more failures than successes.

If everybody goes to Tesla and asks them if you can pay the car directly with Bitcoin, they might realize that there is real demand.

The problem with Bitcoin is that it's too unstable for conservative businesses to want to accept. Sure it's going up now. But what comes up must come down. I know someone who bought a second house in 2006 because she "knew" that real estate always goes up. Bitcoin has been great for those who go in early. But as they always say in the stock prospectuses, "Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance."

Note also, that Bitcoin is not an investment. It's a speculation. It produces nothing. You're just hoping that next month or next year someone will be willing to pay more for it than you did. When you buy TSLA you're investing in a company that is producing value. If it succeeds, the actual value (the ability to produce stuff) rises. Precious metals and currencies, including crypto-currencies are all similar in that respect. Crypto-currencies don't have a government regulating their value, but they are subject to all the vagaries of the open market.

... I told him to find a defense attorney.

Why ? Did you suspect illegal activity ?

You don't need a defense attorney only when you've broken the law. You need a defense attorney when the cops decide to suspect you of breaking the law. (Though it sounds from the posts as though this guy was doing something shady.)

I don't think that is a problem for me, I can't see reasonable way of doing more than about $1000 a week from Bitcoin to my checking account.

How do you think it'd look if I did literally $1000 a week every week for several months, non stop, like clockwork.

If the agent asks, it's literally the only way I see to move it to my checking account.

It's not illegal to move around large amounts of cash. You just have to be able to demonstrate that you got it legally. My guess is that nobody's going to bother you over the price of a Model 3. But if they ask, just show them how you got your Bitcoins. If it was by mining or by selling something legit, you're all good. If you got your Bitcoins by selling drugs or other illegal activity, then you may have problems.

... If money in a local bank or credit union isn't subject to capital gains why should bitcoin be subject to it? ...

The quoted passages explain it. Money in your bank account is not taxed because it does not change in value. Note, however, that interest earned on that money is taxable income. Also, if you buy foreign currency and then sell it at a profit, that, too, is taxable, though nobody is going to bother with you for failing to declare the dollar or two you made when you changed your Canadian dollars back to U.S. dollars. But if you buy $10,000 in Canadian dollars and then sell them for a $100 profit, legally you have to declare that as income. (Whether it's capital gains or income or interest, IDK, but you are supposed to declare it.) If you buy $100 worth of Bitcoins and later sell them for $1,000 you have to pay tax on the $900 minus the cost of acquiring them, e.g. the cost of running the computer to mine them.
 
You need a defense attorney when the cops decide to suspect you of breaking the law.
Perhaps. But first they ask questions and if they are satisfied by the answers then presumably end of story (unless the investigation is politically motivated.)

"I bought money orders to turn bit coins into cash" does not change whether a lawyer is retained or not, and it is legal. Someone evading taxes might want representation.
 
Perhaps. But first they ask questions and if they are satisfied by the answers then presumably end of story (unless the investigation is politically motivated.)

"I bought money orders to turn bit coins into cash" does not change whether a lawyer is retained or not, and it is legal. Someone evading taxes might want representation.

Problem is, once they start asking questions they may have already decided to try to get something (anything) on you. There is a science to getting innocent people to confess to something, and cops study this. They'll twist your answers, ask leading questions, ask questions where any answer incriminates you of something. (E.g., "Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no!" But much more subtle than that.) Your best course is to stay clean, obey the law, keep good records, and never talk to the cops without a lawyer.

But again, they're not likely to come after you over the price of a Model 3, unless they have some other reason to try to pin something on you.

As for Bitcoin, if someone gave me a Bitcoin today, I'd sell it or spend it as quick as I could.

"The tulip, white, did for complexion seek,
and learned to interline its cheek.
Its onion root they then so high did hold
that one was for a meadow sold."

-- The Mower Against Gardens, by Andrew Marvell

But at least the tulip makes a pretty flower. Bitcoin is more ephemeral than the "fiat" money its supporters love to disparage.