Don’t order SR or MR if your winter is cold.

[cleveland97]

Here's another data point for the discussion...

Yesterday here in northeast Ohio it was 36F outside and 55F in my garage. I charged and warmed the cabin for ~30 minutes before driving. Started a 50-mile round trip with 1/2 regen and STILL didn't have full regen when I got back home. That trip was 353 wh/mile. I parked the car in the garage and charged it for 45 mins and then got back in and made the exact same round-trip again (to pick up my kid from where I had dropped him off earlier). This time had full regen and the trip was 331 wh/mile.

So in nearly identical conditions that 50 mile trip used 7% more juice on a cold (55 degree) battery than it did on a warm battery.

Short trips on a colder battery are definitely costly... even at 55 degrees.

 

[mswlogo]

Sometimes.
You should charge proximate to the time you leave, and watch how your "math" changes.

Also explain why an LR Model 3 is required for a 25 mile commute. You cannot extrapolate out your 25 mile trip experience to what will happen in a long trip.

So many people suggest "preheating" and are only do the "math" on their vehicle. And not math on their electric bill ($$$).

It will likely cost you MORE to throw heat away when you arrive home from a commute and not charge immediately. Versus waiting until morning with your battery in its worst state and spending $$$ to heat your battery before leaving. They are ignoring what that cost is for that "preheat solution" and basically assuming that it is FREE.

To do the "MATH" correctly you have to calculate total $$$/mi not kw/mi that the car displays.

At the high cost of electricity in New England WITHOUT cold weather impact (or preheating) I'd be close to 50 MPGe.
But I have excess solar capacity and free supercharging, that is the ONLY way the "math" ($$$) works out for me.

If all your interesting in, it a pretty graph on the car, go for it (preheat).

Now if you car is in an (already) heated garage, then it might make sense

I just insulated the walls in my attached garage yesterday Ceiling is next.

 

[mswlogo]

Regen + heat does not account for 50% loss in efficiency.
Sure, on a very short trip with a cold battery and it can look bad. But on longer trips it shouldn't be that bad.

Granted I have not seen single digits (F) yet.

With plenty of cooler nights (20-30F) I've gone from 230 wh/mi to around 250-260.

13% (so far).

Single digits are coming this Thursday night, so that should be a good test.

 

[Nate977p]

Sooooo if 50% is absurd then my car is broken..... Over 6k miles in about 6 weeks..... Haven't been under 30° really. And this does not factor Vampire loss. Oh and every night it's in bottom floor of parking garage (3 floors down) which is still about 60° at all times. Garage does not have charging, but car is warm (~60° every morning).

 

[Nate977p]

And here are drives over 50 miles... Not as much data but still significant.

And I rarely ever drive above 68° degrees on auto.

 

[thefortunes]

Sooooo if 50% is absurd then my car is broken..... Over 6k miles in about 6 weeks..... Haven't been under 30° really. And this does not factor Vampire loss. Oh and every night it's in bottom floor of parking garage (3 floors down) which is still about 60° at all times. Garage does not have charging, but car is warm (~60° every morning).

View attachment 354016

Your car is not "broken."

Your efficiency on all drives ranges from 88% as a high (I am throwing out the 118% as that must be a data connection problem) to 65% as a low.

That is a reduction in range of 26%, which is certainly higher than the 15% I have at that temperature, but still nowhere near 50%.

 

[animorph]

My data seems a little better, though I suspect my 30F-35F was mostly downhill.

 

[zhu-]

Another nasty effect is that the car won't accept much charge until the battery warms. We've found that it's better to drive around for 20 minutes to warm up the battery, then plug into a Supercharger, rather than plug in when the battery is still cold.

It won't charge at all? I'd imagine if it was plugged in, some sort of heating process would start up before charging? Or is that only on the S, X?

 

[Zaxxon]

Here's data from my LR RWD with about 11k miles--drives over 10 miles. It's just started getting cold here, so I need a lot more data at cold temps, but this is a start. My overall lifetime Wh/mi is 222.

The worst impact will be for those who largely take short drives, and do not plug in by default (and therefore have more overnight losses). If you're taking a trip that's long enough to actually be a significant portion of your battery, a 50% loss is absurd as the car would have had time to fully heat the battery.

It's definitely true that over shorter drives with the car sitting idle at cold temperatures unplugged, you can see very large losses on the order of using 2-3x as many rated miles as you're actually driving. For example, last week it was below freezing here for a few days, and my car was largely used for < 1 mile take-the-kids-to-school/activities duty, and left unplugged at night. Picking one of those days as a sample, I used 17.5 miles of range to go 15.65 miles, and I lost another 18 miles while the car was idle (4 were due to preconditioning). But that's not at all the same as what this thread's OP proclaims. It should be noted that ICE vehicles would actually also see extremely terrible mileage numbers under those scenarios.

Tl;dr - it varies, and is certainly not 50% loss during a long trip.

 

[BobAbooey]

OPs dogmatic statement may be true for short trips and extravagant heating behaviors.
I live in Colorado and see about a 15 - 20% hit in range on my 45 mile work commute. Longer drives would be less.

I use my M3 just like any other car I have ever owned. Heat on high, heated seats cookin me and I also do a 45 mile commute one way and it’s like 20% / 40% round trip. (I’m in NJ)

 

[Runt8]

I use my M3 just like any other car I have ever owned. Heat on high, heated seats cookin me and I also do a 45 mile commute one way and it’s like 20% / 40% round trip. (I’m in NJ)

I'm the same way - I am able to charge fully each night so I don't try to baby my usage or worry too much about efficiency. I just drive it normally and set the climate to be comfortable. So far the lowest my battery has ever been is 145miles of range left.

 

[Nate977p]

Your car is not "broken."

Your efficiency on all drives ranges from 88% as a high (I am throwing out the 118% as that must be a data connection problem) to 65% as a low.

That is a reduction in range of 26%, which is certainly higher than the 15% I have at that temperature, but still nowhere near 50%.

I was being dramatic

But that being said, compared to others, my losses seem to be much more....

Any other P3D willing to share data? Might just be that big if i delta LR to P3D.

 

[acoste]

The leakage current of the battery is proportional to the temperature. The you call it "vampire current" is higher with higher temperatures.

What decreases is the usable capacity of the battery. If you would warm up the battery to 75 deg F, you would notice very little range loss.
// the image is just for an average Li ion battery

If there are additional losses, that should come from electric consumers.

 

[Kirby64]

I use my M3 just like any other car I have ever owned. Heat on high, heated seats cookin me and I also do a 45 mile commute one way and it’s like 20% / 40% round trip. (I’m in NJ)

So, assuming you 'normally' would get rated range on the car (which, as we can see here, a LOT of folks don't...), you're at 37% worse during cold periods?

 

[Kirby64]

The leakage current of the battery is proportional to the temperature. The you call it "vampire current" is higher with higher temperatures.

What decreases is the usable capacity of the battery. If you would warm up the battery to 75 deg F, you would notice very little range loss.
// the image is just for an average Li ion battery

If there are additional losses, that should come from electric consumers.

That isn't a useful comparison since Tesla's aren't average Li-Ion batteries and aren't conditioned anything like typical Li-Ions (i.e. not at all). And, they heat up as you drive/charge so they don't exactly have the same impact.

 

[acoste]

That isn't a useful comparison since Tesla's aren't average Li-Ion batteries and aren't conditioned anything like typical Li-Ions (i.e. not at all). And, they heat up as you drive/charge so they don't exactly have the same impact.

Tesla doesn't have a magical battery. Most Li batteries behave like this.
And the battery warms up during drive so the capacity increases as you said. I was talking about parked cars and didn't mention driving. Mileage calculations assume that the battery temperature will rise.

 

[CarlK]

Don't think you're right. Model S 85/60 had 265/200 range and it was one of the most popular cars in Norway.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Don't think you're right. Model S 85/60 had 265/200 range and it was one of the most popular cars in Norway.

It's worth repeating: winters are relatively mild (by US standards) where most of the Norwegian population lives.
Olso gets below freezing on average in winter, but average low is in the 20s F, and populous coastal cities are generally above freezing.

 

[ngogas]

50 percent if a bit exaggerated. It depends on number of factors. For example i have a garage and is cold here. I park at work and drive home and i lose about 30% at max. Average i lose only 20 percent.

 

[acoste]

I may not express myself well that's why you don't understand it?

The battery doesn't lose charge when cold (at least very little). It only loses usable capacity.
Once you start driving, the battery warms up and the usable capacity increases, this is why it still works in cold weather.

Most of the winter driving losses come from the energy lost in warming up the car and the battery.