Don't buy FSD for $2k more. [from 2019 - FSD upgrade not available for 2k at this time]

[dhrivnak]

Yeah. I’m not paying them MORE money when my same car is $3500 cheaper than I bought it for six months ago.

But you also received $3750, more in a tax credit so it seems you are really still ahead.

 

[pdxev]

"I think people are crazy if they buy FSD for an additional 2k. "

"I purchased"

-OP

 

[OCR1]

I find it comical to see the number of people who make comments about tweets and conference calls being binding contracts. As someone who has spent the last 20 years of my career dealing with contract law I can assure you that these comments are complete nonsense. The prevailing paragraph that will have final authority over conflicts between written statements in the purchase agreements and oral tweets or conference calls is contained in everyone’s purchase agreement where it states:

Governing Law; Integration; Assignment. The terms of this Agreement are governed by, and to be interpreted according to, the laws of the State in which we are licensed to sell motor vehicles that is nearest to your address indicated on your Vehicle Configuration. Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding. We may assign this Agreement at our discretion to one of our affiliated entities.

In any case, the majority of posters on this forum are reasonable people who generally agree that Tesla will make good on those who purchased FSD and offer them a free hardware upgrade. They are not insisting it won’t happen, but rather taking issue with the lack of clarity and transparency over how it is being communicated throughout the organization, outside of tweets and investor notes.

There continue to be a few posters who ignore all of the conflicting information and bark the same tired arguments over and over again about why it’s absolutely guaranteed that HW3 is part of the upgrade, no questions asked. While these folks will never admit it, their over the top arguments are really not intended to convince any of us. They are really trying to convince themselves by knocking down anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

 

[Eno Deb]

And anyone who paid for self-driving option, will just get it done for free.

Yeah. And a few years ago he announced that all cars already have the hardware required for full self-driving. And in the next earnings call he might announce "our brilliant engineers have determined that the self-driving functions can be delivered on the existing hardware, no upgrades necessary" and poof, there goes your retrofit. None of this is a contractual obligation, even if the disclaimer I quoted above didn't exist. Sorry to say, but you are extremely gullible. Still hope you get something for your money.

 

[Knightshade]

I find it comical to see the number of people who make comments about tweets and conference calls being binding contracts. As someone who has spent the last 20 years of my career dealing with contract law I can assure you that these comments are complete nonsense. The prevailing paragraph that will have final authority over conflicts between written statements in the purchase agreements and oral tweets

WTF is an "oral tweet"?

Twitter is writing.

Legally binding writing coming from the CEO of a company in fact- as the SEC and several courts have confirmed for us.

Governing Law; Integration; Assignment. The terms of this Agreement are governed by, and to be interpreted according to, the laws of the State in which we are licensed to sell motor vehicles that is nearest to your address indicated on your Vehicle Configuration. Prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding. We may assign this Agreement at our discretion to one of our affiliated entities.

That's the vehicle purchase agreement. You can tell because it says "about the vehicle sold under this Agreement"

It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying FSD after the fact- and no such disclaimer appears when making that purchase.

You'd think someone who spent "20 years of their career dealing with contract law" would've noticed that.

There continue to be a few posters who ignore all of the conflicting information

Mainly because there literally isn't any from anybody high level at Tesla. All those folks have been very consistent and clear going back a year or two on this topic.


The only "conflicting" info is from a few Level 1 support reps, who always offer conflicting info on virtually any topic....as well documented in a ton of other threads here.

 

[Runnergirl]

"I think people are crazy if they buy FSD for an additional 2k. "

"I purchased"

-OP

 

[TSLA Pilot]

I was ambivalent until I made 2 calls to Tesla today. Spoke with a guy in SLC named Cody. The call blew me away -- now there is zero chance I will shell out another $2k to Tesla. First, Cody said he had no information that buying FSD would involve HW3. I asked him about Elon's tweet, etc, and he said that his managers have told him there is no expectation of HW3. He said it is possible, but it is very uncertain. Kudos for his honesty, but really, would anyone spend $2K for some vague set of promises that are not in writing. Remember, those of us who purchased EAP were told it will be cheaper to purchase at the point of sale that upgrade later. Second, I asked him why my neighbor, who I referred to purchase her car, is getting the equivalent for EAP+FSD for $5000. This or course hurts given that I was told that I would pay less. His explanation: it cost less to send a full software update to my neighbor, then to do a piecemeal update to my car with EAP. Talk about crazy explanations. All I can say is that Tesla is digging there own grave with responses like this. I have sadly already dissuaded two friends from purchasing a Tesla. Just too much uncertainty and smoke and mirrors.

Please don't dissuade friends and family from buying a Tesla.

In the real world, there's pretty much only one realistic EV brand, and it's Tesla. Your friends will then go off and buy ICE vehicles, which place our ONLY planet in great peril.

See:

climate.nasa.gov

And:

https://jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7322

YES, Tesla is atrocious at corporate comm. We get it. BUT I'll go with Elon's Tweets over some new-hire staffer/entry-level CS rep any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

To dissuade anyone from buying a Tesla for such an absurd reason is wrong on so many levels . . . .

Thanks.

 

[OCR1]

That's the vehicle purchase agreement. You can tell because it says "about the vehicle sold under this Agreement"

It has nothing whatsoever to do with buying FSD after the fact- and no such disclaimer appears when making that purchase.

I see. So now you are changing your position to suggest that those of us who purchased FSD with the vehicle are subject to a different set of legal terms and conditions than those of us who purchased FSD as an add on?

 

[Knightshade]

I see. So now you are changing your position to suggest that those of us who purchased FSD with the vehicle are subject to a different set of legal terms and conditions than those of us who purchased FSD as an add on?

No, I'm pointing out a dude who claims he worked 20 years in contract law seems to have a really bad understanding of it.... Like quoting a contract that does not even apply to the people in this thread (because the 2k upgrade only exists for those who already have their cars)

on top of that even for those who bought FSD at car purchase time, the agreement you cite disclaims PREVIOUS statement, not future ones after the car is bought.

And Elon has reiterated the HW3 upgrade is included with FSD repeatedly, time and again, as recently as last week.... so THOSE folks would be covered too.

Don't cite your "expertise" in the same post you make it clear you don't really have any maybe?

 

[StealthP3D]

I for one have no trust that the car will stop for lights or signs 100% of the time and if it's not 100%, I won't use it.

Nothing in this life is 100% except for the certainty of death at some point. Even automatic traffic signals, something that should be very simple to implement, occasionally show green to all directions. The standard of FSD is that it will be considerably safer than the average human driver. But due to distracted driving, brain farts, medical issues and general daydreaming, that is a very low hurdle to cross. Which is why, even when FSD passes regulatory approval, I'll be in the driver's seat watching over it like I currently do in the passenger seat when someone else is driving. I'll feel a lot safer having access to all the controls. This combo of computer driving with me observing will be even more safe than a fully attentive professional driver. Look what happened to Princess Diana, a case of poor human judgement of an expert driver.

After testing NAV and summon it's clear the current hardware (sensors not computer) are not suitable for "FSD" and there is 0.1% chance Tesla will swap those so it's clear [to me] this doesn't seem worth it [for me].

See what you did there? You took the three legs of self-driving (sensors, computer and software)) and completely ignored the most important one, the one that is rapidly improving, software. There is no evidence the sensors are not up to the task (and Musk believes they are). Who knows more about this? Granted, Musk himself has admitted that an upgraded computer will be easier to develop software for. And that is exactly what you get if you buy FSD today.

 

[DanH]

I have faith that they will upgrade. It will piss a lot of people if Tesla / Elon doesn’t honor it. It would be my last Tesla if that’s the case.

 

[RyanDe]

Nothing in this life is 100% except for the certainty of death at some point. Even automatic traffic signals, something that should be very simple to implement, occasionally show green to all directions. The standard of FSD is that it will be considerably safer than the average human driver. But due to distracted driving, brain farts, medical issues and general daydreaming, that is a very low hurdle to cross. Which is why, even when FSD passes regulatory approval, I'll be in the driver's seat watching over it like I currently do in the passenger seat when someone else is driving. I'll feel a lot safer having access to all the controls. This combo of computer driving with me observing will be even more safe than a fully attentive professional driver. Look what happened to Princess Diana, a case of poor human judgement of an expert driver.

See what you did there? You took the three legs of self-driving (sensors, computer and software)) and completely ignored the most important one, the one that is rapidly improving, software. There is no evidence the sensors are not up to the task (and Musk believes they are). Who knows more about this? Granted, Musk himself has admitted that an upgraded computer will be easier to develop software for. And that is exactly what you get if you buy FSD today.

Right, in my professional opinion based off my experience both in software/hardware and using the existing product tells me what they have installed on the cars is not enough. The professional opinion of many many smart people in the autonomous vehicle space (Every single company one except Telsa) feels the sensors Tesla has is not enough. If you read the Tesla specs there are clear blind spots by the cameras and you can't have a real FSD vehicle that can't see certain areas. Hell, just the other day my car refused to go into AP because it was raining. No software is going to fix that.

 

[StealthP3D]

Right, in my professional opinion based off my experience both in software/hardware and using the existing product tells me what they have installed on the cars is not enough.

How can you judge a future product based upon it's current performance? That makes no sense. And what is your expertise in neural networks? I sense you don't fully understand how these work.

The professional opinion of many many smart people in the autonomous vehicle space (Every single company one except Telsa) feels the sensors Tesla has is not enough.

Of course. Because they are having trouble developing FSD that works in the real world even using LIDAR! How could Tesla succeed without it? But they are taking two very different approaches. One is much more likely to fail (or at least have unduly burdensome development timeframes and effort). Sometimes less complexity and more elegance wins the race.

If you read the Tesla specs there are clear blind spots by the cameras and you can't have a real FSD vehicle that can't see certain areas.

Clearly you can't have a flying machine that is heavier than air!

See what you did there? You just made up a rule that has no basis in reality.

Hell, just the other day my car refused to go into AP because it was raining. No software is going to fix that.

Really? You just did the same thing, you manufactured an absolute "fact" out of thin air, simply by claiming it as if it were obvious.

Your comments demonstrate a very poor understanding of how things work in this world.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Yeah. And a few years ago he announced that all cars already have the hardware required for full self-driving. And in the next earnings call he might announce "our brilliant engineers have determined that the self-driving functions can be delivered on the existing hardware, no upgrades necessary" and poof, there goes your retrofit. None of this is a contractual obligation, even if the disclaimer I quoted above didn't exist. Sorry to say, but you are extremely gullible. Still hope you get something for your money.

So you're saying that Elon is a Class A Liar?

Well, Elon has a long history of talking. And what he says he'll do, he does, and then some, usually. (Granted, he is often late, but that comes with brilliance making things that currently do not exist possible . . . .)

Yes, we WILL get something for our money: FDS, with HD 3.0.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Right, in my professional opinion based off my experience both in software/hardware and using the existing product tells me what they have installed on the cars is not enough. The professional opinion of many many smart people in the autonomous vehicle space (Every single company one except Telsa) feels the sensors Tesla has is not enough. If you read the Tesla specs there are clear blind spots by the cameras and you can't have a real FSD vehicle that can't see certain areas. Hell, just the other day my car refused to go into AP because it was raining. No software is going to fix that.

Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

There are many to choose from for your post; recommend your reconsider your post in light of them . . .

 

[TANGO SUKKA]

So you're saying that Elon is a Class A Liar?
.

remember when he said FSD will cost more money if you buy it later and then lowered prices so the people who waited actually ended up paying less?

pepperidge farms remembers.

 

[Red3]

The groupthink seems to be that Elon will make good on his statement and that folks who purchased FSD will get the chip upgrade. What if Elon gets ousted as the CEO? I'm not saying that it is likely. What you feel just as confident about getting the upgrade if Tesla was run by another CEO? It's just food for thought. I'm still on the fence about purchasing FSD and I'll likely mull over the decision all day.

 

[Eno Deb]

So you're saying that Elon is a Class A Liar?

Would that personally offend you?

I think he probably believes most of the things he says, although he has a tendency towards hyberbole and sometimes misleading marketing messages. Remember the HW2 "supercomputer" announcement? Or the announcement in Jan 2017 that FSD features beyond EAP would be introduced in six months "definitely"? Or the Summon function that would bring the car to you from anywhere "connected by land and not blocked by borders"?

The guy is clearly doing great things, but that doesn't mean that you have to be a gullible fanboy.

 

[StealthP3D]

remember when he said FSD will cost more money if you buy it later and then lowered prices so the people who waited actually ended up paying less?

He didn't say that. You are making the mistake of confusing the (then) current pricing schedule with a future prediction or promise. Just because there was a lower price for FSD if you bought it concurrently with the car, and that people who bought it afterwards paid more, does not imply the future pricing schedule would never change. And change it did. That's not evidence of a lie, it's evidence of a sale.

 

[dave999z]

A sucker is born every minute. I'm buying FSD for $2k today before the price goes back up. I think there's about a 25% chance I see any new software features by the end of this year, about a 75% chance I see any new software features by the end of 2020, about a 50% chance I ever get a free HW3 upgrade (and if I do it's going to be a total sh!t show rollout process that takes forever and is frustratingly out of order), and about an 80% chance that if I don't buy today I'd still be offered an equivalent or better deal within say a year.

But the way I look at it is...

After adjusting for tax rebate, I paid $3,550 more than someone would to buy the same car today. (Although mine has EAP as opposed to just AP. And I got lifetime connectivity. And silver, which isn't available anymore. Trying to make myself feel better here.)

Whereas if I spend another $2k on FSD now, the total I will have paid is only $550 more than someone would to buy the same car today with FSD.

So I'm (effed into) spending $2k today to feel less effed at least for a little while. Makes perfect sense.

At the end of the day I have no problem with Tesla dropping car prices for new purchasers over time. Of course that's going to happen. (It's been a little abrupt for some purchasers, and I think Tesla ought to ease that pain in some cases the same way lots of products have a period of price protection. Not my case though.) The problem I have is with the retroactive offers to previous purchasers to add software post delivery that they had declined on and that Tesla until 5 minutes ago was representing at the point of sale would cost more post delivery. For that, I don't want the solution to be that Tesla doesn't offer those retroactive deals. I just want them to also retroactively make it fair to people who did buy the software predelivery. But that's not happening, so whatever.

Cheers all, and good luck with your decisions.