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EAP HW2 - my experience thus far... [DJ Harry]

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"Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and may not brake/decelerate for stationary vehicles, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h) and a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary vehicle or object is in front of you instead. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death. In addition, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel, causing Model X to slow down unnecessarily or inappropriately."
I'm aware of this warning. My understanding of what this is saying is that if you are following a moving car and you're both coming up on a stopped object, the Tesla may not stop in time if the car in front of you moves sideways into another lane. It doesn't have good look ahead capability to see the car in front of the one you're following.

It's certainly true that the radar may well miss a vehicle or object, stopped or moving, but the bald assertion that the radar doesn't see stopped vehicles is not true.
 
I'm aware of this warning. My understanding of what this is saying is that if you are following a moving car and you're both coming up on a stopped object, the Tesla may not stop in time if the car in front of you moves sideways into another lane. It doesn't have good look ahead capability to see the car in front of the one you're following.

It's certainly true that the radar may well miss a vehicle or object, stopped or moving, but the bald assertion that the radar doesn't see stopped vehicles is not true.

You didn't quote the blue text which was Tesla's response outside the manual.

When turning corners in a residential section, I do see parked cars on the dashboard on the new firmware. We KNOW it has to be able to see and act on parked/immobile cars (eventually). If it doesn't, FSDC would never be possible.

Since it does not now, we must drive with the assumption that TACC does not see and does not act on immobile objects.

Any other opinion or application otherwise is reckless, irresponsible and brings harm to others.
 
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As always there's a tangle of TACC and AEB in this thread. The manual warns you that TACC may not see immobile objects. AEB warns you it reacts when it thinks an impact is imminent. IME (as posted yesterday) AEB was able to alert me well ahead of imminent collision.

Neither are definitive, just as human control is not - sometimes things screw up. The computer will do so consistently given the same parameters - there's a lot more going on for the human, so their response will be less consistent.

Both are just supposed to help you when your wetware/sensors are busy with other things (not watching a movie - but may be looking at another potential problem on the sidewalk, like a kid waiting to cross or a dog running loose).
 
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This is explicitly not true. AP1 has no problem identifying stopped objects and, in fact, slowing down and coming to a full stop to avoid hitting them. I've personally experienced this many times in my car.

Here is what we know

AP1 has crashed numerous times into stalled vehicles especially vehicles on the shoulder. This is part of why there was so much focus/attention on improving the radar and implementing white listing (might be done by 8.1)
AP1 can in specific situation/circumstances detect pedestrians and stopped cars, but this is no guarantee that it always will. Not only does the camera have to see the object, but it also has to identify it. It wouldn't be good if your AP car stopped for some trash in the road.
AP1 is not AP2
AP2 isn't anywhere close to being finished.
TACC != AP
 
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To start with, automotive radar capabilities aren't based on the frequency shift that simple doppler radar uses. It does measure frequency shift, but the main way it gets information is by looking at the delay in features of the "chirp" it emits.

I'm extremely doubtful that the strongest echo on any radar system is related to the relative velocity of the target. Whether the object the beam strikes, either directly on echo, is moving or not has nothing to do with the strength of the return, although it would affect the frequency of the return. The reflective characteristics of the surface and its angle to the beam are the main determinants of the return strength.

If you shine a flashlight at a car, does the reflected light intensity change if the car is moving or not?

I think you're mixing together a few different things here. the part about strongest echoes was describing the way some police radars separate which targets they cared about, and you're right that it isn't directly relevant.

The radar will scan across its field of view and identify all of the things that bounce its signal back over a certain intensity level. Each of those things will get a bearing and possibly elevation from the scan direction, a distance from the time it took the pulse to return, and a velocity from the frequency/phase shift of the returned signal (that's the doppler part.)

So yes, the radar itself certainly sees the stopped car. It also sees the overhead sign next to it, and the soda can beside that. The problem comes in figuring out if any of these matters to driving...

It doesn't know the difference between the soda can (which, with its bottom pointed towards the car produces a much larger radar return than would be typical from it's size,) the overhead sign, and the stopped car.

First generation ACC systems would throw all three of them out as not relevant, because they all show a doppler shift that says they aren't moving (the shift shows they are all moving towards the car at the car's speed.) This would be true even if the car had been moving before, and is why those systems can't be used to a full stop in traffic and cut out at some low speed (8 mph, for example.)

Second generation ACC would remember that the car had moved (if it had been in the field of view and moving before,) and would track it to a stop and remember "that one moved, so it's a car and I'd better not hit it." If the car was stopped the first time it appeared, it'd still be classed as ground clutter and ignored. This is where a lot of the mainstream ACC "full speed/stop and go" systems are even now.

Autopilot/TACC from 7.1 and early 8.0 adds one more layer - it does object recognition against the front camera(s) and anything that looks like a car or truck to the camera's DNN gets coordinated by bearing with its radar returned and treated as a car, even if it was stopped the first time the radar saw it.

The (rare) cases you have now of crashes or near misses are because the camera didn't see the object as a car far enough away (or at all) for whatever combination of environmental or object shape/color factors and the radar hadn't seen it move, so the car dismissed the return as not relevant, like so many other truly irrelevant returns it has to deal with every day.

Autopilot/TACC under 8.1 will go even further. Teslas with 8.0 installed have been making records of their routes, and identifying things that have large stationary radar returns on bearings that appear on or close to the road, and uploading their exact locations to mother Tesla after the car safely passes them. Tesla is assembling from them map tiles of whitelisted objects - the plan is that in the future AP/TACC will stop or at least slow down in response to a large stationary return that wasn't on the whitelist when driving a route that's been mapped, even if the camera's DNN doesn't flag it as a car.

Elon's also talked about temporal smoothing of point clouds from the radar, which would potentially help determine if the returns are objects in the car's path or not and help with the 3d mapping aspects.

(I've never seen anyone say it, but I'm kinda expecting the whitelist to eventually become a secondary map for autonomous driving redundancy - with exact locations of the objects known, knowing your bearing and distance from the object means you know your location.)
 
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I think you're mixing together a few different things here. the part about strongest echoes was describing the way some police radars separate which targets they cared about, and you're right that it isn't directly relevant.

The radar will scan across its field of view and identify all of the things that bounce its signal back over a certain intensity level. Each of those things will get a bearing and possibly elevation from the scan direction, a distance from the time it took the pulse to return, and a velocity from the frequency/phase shift of the returned signal (that's the doppler part.)

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So what exactly was mixed together?

Also, automotive radar isn't pulsed. It uses continuous wave transmission and measures the time offset of the chirps to calculate distance. They use the vertical and horizontal angles, which are the resolution limits, plus the distance to return an encoded 3D position and approximate size for each detected target. And yes, that includes objects moving at the same velocity as the background, i.e. stopped.

Police radars often have a function that allows them to display the fastest object in the field of view. I doubt there are any that separate by returned signal strength. In fact, they try hard to catch weak returns, e.g. motorcycles, in front of large returns, e.g. trucks by analyzing the spectrum of the returned signal. In the case where the radar is seeing a fast motorcycle in front of a slow truck, there are two doppler shifts superimposed, a weak high frequency from the motorcycle and an strong low frequency from the truck. They want that weak high frequency signal.
 
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So what exactly was mixed together?

Also, automotive radar isn't pulsed. It uses continuous wave transmission and measures the time offset of the chirps to calculate distance. They use the vertical and horizontal angles, which are the resolution limits, plus the distance to return an encoded 3D position and approximate size for each detected target. And yes, that includes objects moving at the same velocity as the background, i.e. stopped.

Police radars often have a function that allows them to display the fastest object in the field of view. I doubt there are any that separate by returned signal strength. In fact, they try hard to catch weak returns, e.g. motorcycles, in front of large returns, e.g. trucks by analyzing the spectrum of the returned signal. In the case where the radar is seeing a fast motorcycle in front of a slow truck, there are two doppler shifts superimposed, a weak high frequency from the motorcycle and an strong low frequency from the truck. They want that weak high frequency signal.

There may be automotive radars for which you are correct. There are certainly automotive radars for which you are wrong, like this Delphi automotive system:

Delphi ESR 2.5 | RADAR | Product

It's an electronically scanned pulse doppler system. I'm pretty sure Tesla's is as well. Tesla uses a Bosch system, which I haven't really found detailed specs on:

Now that we know Bosch is the supplier, here's the data sheet for Tesla's radar. Some facts: four elements, 250m range, built in object detection, optional heated radome. • /r/teslamotors
 
So you haven't described what you think was mixed up I notice.

This is page about the Bosch MRR which is what most people think the Tesla uses, it's a FMCW radar, that is Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave radar.

In any event, the original point to all of this is that Tesla's radar is quite capable of detecting objects which are stationary with respect to the background.
 
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Update on Auto Steer

So this evening auto steer finally lite up in the beautiful 405 traffic.
First impression - not very smooth. My paranoia went from 7 to a full 10 :)
  • The lane markers on the instrument panel keeps "dancing" (sways left and right) - not sure if others notice this too. This happens all the time and more noticeable when the vehicle is stopped. Probably something to do with the depth of vision tri cameras.
  • At one point I had to take over as it started drifting to close to a car on right ( may be not, but I felt it was too close to the other car that was drifting to the left and I did NOT know if EAP was tracking. There is no visual indication ). A hard steer would take over Auto Steer but still leaves TACC engaged. Maybe folks knew this but it wasn't obvious to me - but that makes sense. Also means you have to decide to hit the brakes or force the wheel. A new thing to learn.
  • Lastly my Tesla service technician mentioned that there is one known issue with auto steer. if you are driving close to the triple marked carpool lane (Two yellow on the outside and one white line on the inside) apparently the car has an affinity to follow the white line thus drifting closer into the carpool lane) I did not experience it but he warned me about it.

So some ways to go...
 
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Update on Auto Steer

So this evening auto steer finally lite up in the beautiful 405 traffic.
First impression - not very smooth. My paranoia went from 7 to a full 10 :)

Did you notice if in the instrument cluster rendering of the road, does AP2 only show the car ahead in your lane, or does it also render cars in adjacent lanes. Saw an Instagram video of someone's AP2 today, and it looked like right now it's not rendering cars in adjacent lanes. What did you see?
 
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Did you notice if in the instrument cluster rendering of the road, does AP2 only show the car ahead in your lane, or does it also render cars in adjacent lanes. Saw an Instagram video of someone's AP2 today, and it looked like right now it's not rendering cars in adjacent lanes. What did you see?
Just single lane ahead. You will ocassionally see cars that merge into your lane coming from the sides rendered. The Nvidia reveal at CES suggests that they have the capability to render multi lanes around .
 
I just emailed Tesla, I think the subscribers in this thread would find it useful if you didn't happen to follow my firmware posts on the X sub forum.

Dear Tesla,

I wanted to provide additional feedback on firmware 2.50.185 after
driving this afternoon and evening.

TACC near collision with Prius Driver:

I was driving 50MPH down a city road with TACC enabled. A Prius driver
made a left turn on a red light against my green light driving
straight.

TACC made no attempt to slow down nor was FCW sensor triggered. I was
able to brake manually and prevent the collision. If I let TACC run,
the point of impact would have been the driver side door of the Prius.

Autosteer Confusion

For part of my trip, highway traffic slowed down enough to enable
autosteer. The road was the carpool lane on Interstate-5 between
Irvine and Anaheim. The lane had a white line on the left, a yellow
line on the right and a black line in the middle. Autosteer picked up
the black line and the yellow line to drive between. There was not
enough width between the black line and yellow line to constitute a
lane large enough for the Model X.

FCW False Positive

I had another FCW false positive with TACC enabled. I was going 50MPH
down a road that has a dip. Coming down the dip/out of the dip I
received a FCW warning, a red phantom car on my dashboard and the
Model X began to slow down.

I hope this feedback helps. Please feel free to contact me if I can be
of additional assistance.
 
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Just single lane ahead. You will ocassionally see cars that merge into your lane coming from the sides rendered. The Nvidia reveal at CES suggests that they have the capability to render multi lanes around .

Thanks. Actually, AP1 already renders cars, trucks, and motorcycles in the two adjacent lanes as well as up to two cars ahead in same lane.

This is another aspect in which AP2 is still significantly behind AP1.
 
So you haven't described what you think was mixed up I notice.

This is page about the Bosch MRR which is what most people think the Tesla uses, it's a FMCW radar, that is Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave radar.

In any event, the original point to all of this is that Tesla's radar is quite capable of detecting objects which are stationary with respect to the background.

Interesting.

After re-reading the thread, I'm not sure if I misunderstood you, or if you were combining the pieces that I don't think fit.

As I alluded to in the original post, it seemed to me like you were focusing in on what chilliban said about how some past police radars worked and applying it to how Tesla's AP radar worked which based on what I knew about the Delphi system I thought was basically irrelevant.

Yes, we got your main point that the radar will have a large return off of the stationary object.

You seem to be missing our point that the radar's signal processing will generally dismiss that return as irrelevant and not pass it to the car's control system for action (because the to the radar's signal processing, it looks like any number of stationary non-car objects the radar isn't supposed to pass to the control system.)
 
Thanks. Actually, AP1 already renders cars, trucks, and motorcycles in the two adjacent lanes as well as up to two cars ahead in same lane.

This is another aspect in which AP2 is still significantly behind AP1.

I was under the impression that with the addition of the side cameras, EAP would render cars to your side and behind you to mitigate the present blind spot detection deficiencies. Doesn't appear that is the case at this time...
BTW, yesterday, there was a motorcycle rider in front of me weaving around so I kept waiting for my car to disengage from him and lock onto the next vehicle in front but it stayed on the motorcycle which was impressive.
 
I was under the impression that with the addition of the side cameras, EAP would render cars to your side and behind you to mitigate the present blind spot detection deficiencies. Doesn't appear that is the case at this time...
BTW, yesterday, there was a motorcycle rider in front of me weaving around so I kept waiting for my car to disengage from him and lock onto the next vehicle in front but it stayed on the motorcycle which was impressive.

I'm not certain how Tesla will choose to set up the displays, but I think you're basically correct about the long term plan.

I'm kinda puzzled that you're surprised the car doesn't have it yet when Tesla hasn't managed to duplicate the AP1 features to date.

I believe something like what you described is on their list to implement, and will show up in a future firmware update.
 
Please feel free to post lengthy dashcam videos showing the road ahead, as well as what the dash display is showing. While a picture is worth 1,000 words, actual video of autosteer working in the wild will provide us armchair quarterbacks ample opportunity to watch and understand the improvement over time. The motorcycle veering around would have been VERY interesting to see on the display.

Should Tesla be so inclined as to provide me a free vehicle, I will be happy to be a full time beta tester and document any/all issues and improvements I find with the ongoing software rollouts. I specialize in the Pasadena to Las Vegas drive :cool:

RT
 
Blind spot detection is NOT an AP1 feature so I am puzzled by your puzzlement :)

Exactly. Tesla needs to get AP2 up to the AP1 capabilities as quickly as possible to stop all the complaints about how the more expensive new cars can't do basic things older cars do and that the new owners saw in the test drive.

New features not bring rolled out right away has less negative PR/customer dissatisfaction, so Tesla's engineering resources are presumably focused on the AP features.